Antivaccine lunatics invent another hero for their cause

Yes, out of the blue, the vaccine denialist cult is going to foist another individual who will trumpet the evils of vaccination. No, it’s not another Jenny McCarthy. Or Alicia Silverstone. Or Mayim Bialik.

No, this is big time. Wait for it. This is really big.

It’s Bernard Dalbergue.

I think I hear chirping crickets out there. No, I had no idea who this dude was, so as a public service, I decided to find out what I could find out.

So who is this Bernard Dalbergue and why is he important to the antivaccinationists? Well, it’s because, as the antivaccination fringe proclaim loudly, Dr. Dalbergue is a “former pharmaceutical industry physician with Gardasil manufacturer Merck.” And he apparently made some nasty comments about Gardasil in the April 2014 issue (pdf, French) in the French anti-science magazine Principes de Santé (Health Principles). 

Source: CDC
Source: CDC

In case you don’t know, Gardasil (or Silgard in Europe) is a HPV quadrivalent vaccine, which is vitally important part of the war against infectious diseases, by preventing the transmission of certain types (pdf), specifically 6, 11, 16, and 18, of the human papillomavirus (HPV). Importantly, HPV types 16 and 18 cause approximately 70% of cervical cancers, and cause most HPV-induced anal (95% linked to HPV), vulvar (50% linked), vaginal (65% linked), oropharyngeal (60% linked) and penile (35% linked) cancers. These HPV-related cancers can be prevented as long as you can prevent the HPV infection itself, which are generally passed through genital contact, most often during vaginal, oral and anal sex.

In that article, Dr. Dalbergue claimed that (translated from French):

The full extent of the Gardasil scandal needs to be assessed: everyone knew when this vaccine was released on the American market that it would prove to be worthless! Diane Harper, a major opinion leader in the United States, was one of the first to blow the whistle, pointing out the fraud and scam of it all.

Gardasil is useless and costs a fortune!  In addition, decision-makers at all levels are aware of it!

Cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome, paralysis of the lower limbs, vaccine-induced MS and vaccine-induced encephalitis can be found, whatever the vaccine.

I predict that Gardasil will become the greatest medical scandal of all times because at some point in time, the evidence will add up to prove that this vaccine, technical and scientific feat that it may be, has absolutely no effect on cervical cancer and that all the very many adverse effects which destroy lives and even kill, serve no other purpose than to generate profit for the manufacturers.

There is far too much financial interest for these medicines to be withdrawn.

Uh oh, Diane Harper, that “major opinion leader in the USA” is being compared to Dr. Dalbergue. And in case you don’t know about Dr. Diane Harper, according to a number of vaccine refuseniks (there are numerous websites that repeat the same story, almost verbatim), she decided to “come clean” about Gardasil so that she could “sleep at night.” The antivaccination world have attached themselves to this story, because they think it uncovers a conspiracy or lies by the vaccine manufacturers, and since Dr. Harper obviously escaped from the evil clutches of Big Pharma. The myth of Diane Harper also includes the ridiculous belief that she was the “lead researcher” for Gardasil.

Dr. Dalbergue’s story seems awfully like Dr. Harper’s. Except for the small fact that I can find no evidence that he ever worked for Merck (as opposed to Dr. Harper, who actually did, though not quite in the role she and the antivaccine world claimed). As far as I was able to uncover through sources and background checks, Dr. Dalbergue was the Directeur Medicale (Medical Director) of a drug distributor, Martin & Harris Pvt. Ltd. Let’s look at this step by step. Every medical products distributor in the world has a Medical Director, someone who signs off on documentation, occasionally holds pharmacy licenses, and provides advice on medical issues to the partners, principles and executives of the company.

A Medical Director is almost always a critical role in pharmaceutical companies undergoing research and development. Almost every medical or pharmaceutical company must have an MD approve regulatory documents. However, being a Medical Director for a minor pharmaceutical distributor, by itself, lends no credence to a statement that he was deeply involved with Merck. He was not employed by Merck.

Since Martin & Harris was not a primary manufacturer of vaccines, Dr. Dalbergue had little, if any, access to privileged information. As best as I can surmise, Martin & Harris is a defunct distributor of pharmaceuticals from the larger pharmaceutical companies. Just a brief aside in this discussion. Pharmaceutical companies, in general, do not sell directly to hospitals, physicians or pharmacies. Owning and maintaining a huge international distribution network for just a few drugs would be incredibly inefficient and expensive. So, a whole industry of medical products distributors has grown up throughout the world, with the USA having a rather complex system of distribution with separate companies focusing their efforts on either the hospital, physician or retail pharmacy markets (and generally, there is no overlap).

Basically, the distributor gets about 15-30% of the price paid by the hospital for a product. So, if a $40 vaccine is purchased by a physician, the distributor gets around 20% or $8, and the pharmaceutical company around $32. But I’m over simplifying this system because it would be a 50,000 word document to describe the medical distribution system adequately.

The point is that distributors are not owned by the manufactures (actually that’s illegal in the USA), and Big Pharma treats distributors with disdain, sometimes unbridled disgust. Essentially, Big Pharma considers distributors nothing more than truck drivers who take profits away, when in fact, distributors are generally the people who have relationships with the hospitals and physicians. It is a world of love-hate relationships that would surprise most people.

I’m willing to assume that Dr. Dalbergue was a Medical Director for the possibly defunct distributor, because that appears to be public knowledge. But he’s going to have no inside knowledge of what Merck was doing with Gardasil. None at all. The distributor’s truck drivers are going to know as much, and I’m not exaggerating. The information and research at Merck is so highly protected by confidentiality agreements, they wouldn’t pass along data to Dalbergue because he could take that information to GSK, for example. Dr. Dalbergue wouldn’t have any inside knowledge of Merck’s activities, no more or less than I do (though I probably have a LOT more, because of my former life).

A few French speakers have read some of the French language articles about Dr. Dalbergue which has been helpful in understanding better his relationship with Merck. They did indeed acquire Martin & Harris, and terminated all of the executives of the company (something that is typically done, and don’t worry, in these cases, the executives receive substantial payouts), including Dr. Dalbergue. I guess this attempt to denigrate Gardasil is his revenge, because he certainly would have no insider knowledge of the vaccine.

But let’s be clear, unless someone publishes documents disputing what I have written here, I strongly doubt that Dr. Dalbergue had any formal or even informal relationship with Merck. This is simply an invention of a wild imagination.

Furthermore, Dr. Dalbergue’s comments show his absolute lack of knowledge or insight into the safety of HPV vaccines. There is no evidence of Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS) being associated with the HPV quadrivalent vaccine. In fact, two massive epidemiological studies, one that included over 300,000 girls, and another with over 500,000, showed no significant major adverse effects after receiving the HPV vaccine. And that includes GBS.

So here we go. The zombie apocalypse of “important Merck researchers” arising out of nowhere to attack Gardasil has travelled to France. Dr. Dalbergue might be a good guy. He may have been misquoted. Maybe he is just another member of the lunatic fringe of vaccine deniers. But there is no evidence that he knows anything more than any of the other antivaccine gang. And there is absolutely no evidence he actually worked for or has any inside knowledge about Merck. And there is plenty of evidence that he knows nothing about Gardasil.

Just another loud mouth without scientific evidence. Apparently, the antivaccination cult is so desperate, it’s inventing titles and pulling unemployed physicians out of the detritus of collapsed distributors to further their cause. But we’ve got Paul Offit, whose rotavirus vaccine will save over 500,000 lives a year. To quote Tony Stark in The Avengers, “we have a Hulk.”

Use the Science-based Vaccine Search Engine.

Key citations:

  • Sidney Vicious
  • Sidney Vicious

  • 1johnnyrotten1

    thank you for defending big pharma…we know for a fact that their primary goal is to make people healthy and making money is way way down on their list of priorities…and if not for them how would the human race have survived for thousands of years… OH WAIT

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Skeptical Raptor

      Ad hominem. I’m playing logical fallacy bingo, and you’re helping me win this week’s Big Pharma shill check.

      It’s so amusing that you think you’re so intelligent by pulling something out of your ass and claiming it’s gold. Good for you. Do you need a psychiatrist for your delusions. LOL.

      • 1johnnyrotten1

        just answer the questions its real simple…is big pharmas main priority making money and has the human race survived thousands of years without vaccines…take your time..by the way you are the very definition of a shill…and an ass too

      • 1johnnyrotten1

        chirp chirp chirp

    • Derek Williamson

      There is far more money in preventative and cosmetic health care than in disease treatment. Contrary to your statement, Pharma companies have a vested interest in you living a longer, healthier life. ED medications, as an example, represent are a $3b market that is incredibly profitable. Oncology drugs – though the total market size is around $100b – are highly specialized, and incredibly costly to develop and produce.
      Regarding your statement about the human race surviving thousands of years without vaccines: when was the last time you looked at average life expectancy? We live 50+ years longer than our ancestors… you don’t think modern medicine is the reason?

      • 1johnnyrotten1

        the reason we live longer now is…better nutrition aka food.. cleaner environments…like modern sanitation and clean water which means LESS bacteria…. doctors used to operate on patients WITHOUT even washing their hands…the guy who originally came up with the idea of washing hands before surgery was ostracized by his fellow doctors… oh and you still didn’t answer my questions…

        • Derek Williamson

          What questions? You made baseless statements. Your assertion is that modern medical breakthroughs – antibiotics, vaccines, insulin – has not contributed to added life expectancy? We should stay in the dark ages of medicine?

          By the way, vaccines, as a market makeup only a tiny fraction of the pharmaceutical market, and are generally less profitable than other categories of pharmaceuticals because of added handling costs, short lives, etc.

          • 1johnnyrotten1

            how the hell is surviving thousands of years without vaccines baseless? and you still didn’t answer if the drug companies number 1 priority is making money… because it is…if you deny that you are a fool…

          • Derek Williamson

            The fact that the human race survived is not an argument or evidence of anything – it’s senseless. We also survived without antibiotics for thousands of years (although our predecessors lived much shorter lives because of it); should we get rid of those? And modern sanitation, as you cited – we survived without that too… I guess we don’t really need it either, then? No one is debating that the human race as a whole would continue to survive without vaccines – there would just be fewer of us, and we’d be living shortened lives.

            Vaccines, as part of a group of other major medical breakthroughs, have undeniably increased human longevity. Here is a study that supports this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10559545. There are many, many studies that support this.

            I already acknowledged that drug companies are out to make a profit. Did you not read my initial comment? These same companies make FAR more money manufacturing and selling preventative and cosmetic treatments than they do making drugs to fight diseases. Contrary to the popular assertion that “drug companies want to keep you sick”, the opposite is actually true. Drugs for disease are incredibly costly to develop, test, handle and distribute, and require constant reformulation to fight ever-evolving diseases. Drug companies would much rather produce mass-market drugs for things like ED, male pattern baldness, or anti-aging pharmaceuticals; they’re far more profitable.

  • Gayle Dickson

    Have YOU had a daughter affected by this vile vaccine? I was pro-vax and made her undertake the full course of three – I wish I hadn’t!!

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Skeptical Raptor

      Anecdote. Doesn’t mean anything to me.

      My daughters are all brilliant college students after full vaccination. Must be my superior genes. Oh wait. Must be because we don’t believe in anecdotes from random trolls on the internet. :)

      • Gayle Dickson

        Oh. That’s right. Turn to sarcasm when you don’t have a good answer

        • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Skeptical Raptor

          You must live in some odd passive-aggressive world. That was not sarcasm. I really do have superior genes to you, since my children are brilliant after all their vaccines. Oh wait. Maybe that’s sarcasm.

          Oh fuck it, I don’t give a shit.

    • Derek Williamson

      Have YOU had a daughter affected by terminal cervical cancer?

      • Gayle Dickson

        No! But I’d be interested to hear what strain it was

        • Derek Williamson

          Are you suggesting there isn’t a clear connection between HPV and cervical cancer?

  • Adrian Lombardini

    All you well meaning people who are commenting here trying to make the blog writer reconsider his ideas… you are wasting your time. This is not a skeptical. Skepticals doubt, question, research, entertain contradictory ideas, debate. This one here is simply A BIG PHARMA MERCENARY paid to crush dissent by any means.

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Skeptical Raptor

      Intelligent comment. I appreciate your thoughtful and logical statement.

    • Derek Williamson

      Or… someone with a capacity for logic.

  • Smimsey

    I like the cut of your jib.

    • Peter

      WHAT ABOUT THE JIBS OF PARENTS WHO ARE STANDING UP FOR THEIR RIGHT TO MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT WHAT IS BEST FOR THEIR OWN CHILDREN!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

      • Smimsey

        Well, I don’t like the cut of your jib.

        • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Skeptical Raptor

          Cut of your jib? Wow, I haven’t heard that in years. LOL. Good one.

      • Derek Williamson

        You fail to understand that this decision has significant externalities. Not paying taxes is the best decision for me personally, but not the best for society – it means everyone else has to pay a little bit more to make up for my selfishness. Your decision not to vaccinate does not affect only your children, but every child around you. What about the other children who cannot vaccinate because of immune deficiencies or allergies? Are you okay risking their lives?

  • FACTS

    minimizing vaccine injuries! what a horrific thing to do…Big
    pharma has trillions of reasons to lie about vaccine injuries and the
    controlled media is fully complicit- as they have been in endless other
    cases of corporate malfeasance.. only 1-10% of all vaccine injuries
    are ever reported, only a very tiny few of those injuries are processed
    by the NVICP. (The very existence of the NVICP is hidden from the
    general public, which is proof of an agenda to manipulate people.) Yet,
    billions have been quietly paid out to vaccine injured people.
    Therefore, the real estimates of compensation due to vaccine injured
    people is in the trillions of dollars. This article is propaganda as
    it “forgets” to mention this fact.

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Skeptical Raptor

      I can’t find one truth in your comment. Amazing.

      Big Pharma makes less than a couple of percent of their profits from vaccines. But you know what? If they quit selling vaccines, they would make trillions of reasons. So, the real truth is that anti-vaxxers are all pro-Big Pharma trolls trying to increase profits. How do you feel about your moral fortitude?

      NVICP is well known to attorneys as a way to screw the US Government out of money. Don’t worry, if you believe that you have a vaccine injury you can be one of those slime to get that money. Wow, your ethics really are right up there with Republicans.

  • Sean Reynolds

    If there are no serious adverse reactions associated with Gardasil, then why are so many parents and vaccinated girls reporting serious adverse reactions from Gardasil? i.e. at a statistically higher rate than the background noise level of sudden deaths in otherwise healthy teens or chronic disability like Guillain-Barre syndrome, in the complete absence of receiving any other vax to allow for a reasonable washout time of a few years? Can someone clear this mystery up? Didn’t both India and Japan just decide to withdraw support for Gardasil due to ARs? Or are they easily frightened by the rumour mill despite the ‘null hypothesis confirmation’ from your safety papers funded by the company that made the vax?

    e.g. from Japan, “Momoi is one of five men on the government task force leading the investigation of the HPV vaccinations. The task force has heard 1,968 adverse effects and are further investigating 43 of the cases. In the months ahead, the government will be forced to decide to continue withdrawing their support or to go ahead and reinstate their recommendation for the vaccines.”

    They don’t seem to fully accept the large scale safety results produced internally by Merck.

    “The Japanese experience mimics that of Australia where, after the introduction of the Gardasil vaccine, Australia experienced an 85% increase in the rate of reported reactions – a situation noted by the Commonwealth Department of Health in their Annual Report (CDI Vol 32 No 4 2008). In contrast to Japan however, whose government has acted quickly and responsibly to protect the health of its citizens, Australian health authorities have not taken any action to ensure the safety of its young people in regards to these vaccines.”

    “India Suspends Gardasil Program After Four Deaths and Complications in 120 Girls

    Delhi: The Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR) has told Andhra Pradesh and Gujarat to immediately suspend the cervical cancer control vaccination programme for girls. The programme is part of a two-year study to look into the utility of a vaccine in public health programmes and acceptability of Gardasil, the human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine made by Merck.

    The programme was marred by controversy after four deaths and complications among 120 girls were reported after vaccination. The girls complained of stomach disorders, epilepsy, headaches and early menarche. Women activists fear the vaccine may impact the mental health of girls who have shown no signs of distress so far.”

    I mean, science tells us that the cervical cancer death rate is already very low in countries with screening programs (3 per 100,000 in the US, lower in Europe), 2 of the strains touted by Merck in their vax are almost inconsequential in cervical cancer, and that the full cost of pap smear screening will need to continue regardless. Or is this one of those unpleasant choices only on offer to 3rd world countries: “you can’t afford a pap smear program, so here’s a vax which is a bit dangerous which will have to do instead to offset the higher risk faced by lack of a pap smear program”. Except that this vax is so expensive that it’s unlikely that argument will wash either — if you can afford the vax for your people, you can afford a pap smear program. (It’s a little like going to refugee camps in 3rd world countries with poor health care, sanitation and malnutrition causing high mortality rates from measles and other diseases, offering cheap vaccines and a quick one-off dose of Vit A to help infants survive while doing nothing about malnutrition, world poverty or wars — Hobson’s Choice again.)

    And of course we know that Gardasil may only confer protection against 4 out of 100 HPV strains (40 genital, 18 high risk oncogenic) for 5-7 years, assuming the vax takes at all with 3 difficult to deliver shots, and in practice it will of course take 10-20 years of community programs to measure its effectiveness as that’s how long it takes a typical HPV cancer to get underway. This might imply multiple booster shots for all women (effective only against 4 strains — but if you have other strains, the boosters may well be ineffective, as the vax has found not to work in ppl already infected with HPV, so receiving a booster after being exposed to one of the 36 other strains in your life may mean the booster simply won’t work.) If the program needs boosters every 5 years just to be effective, and other contracted strains stop if from working, then of course the entire vax concept is ‘illogical’ to begin with, i.e. it can’t and won’t even work and all the money has been wasted and gone into others’ pockets with no value being provided. Further to the difference between ‘overall community effectiveness’ of a program vs its assumed ‘individual efficacy’, condoms work better to prevent the spread of gHPV than anything else — and there is also a concern that the use of Gardasil or Cevarix will have the opposite effect of causing an uptick in other STIs as young and not entirely intelligent girls may have a sense of invulnerability from receiving the HPV vax.

    Fom another source:
    “Many women are not aware that the HPV vaccine Gardasil might actually increase your risk of cervical cancer. Initially, that information came straight from Merck and was presented to the FDA prior to approval. According to Merck’s own research, if you have been exposed to HPV strains 16 or 18 prior to receipt of Gardasil vaccine, you could increase your risk of precancerous lesions, or worse, by 44.6 percent.

    Other health problems associated with Gardasil vaccine include immune-based inflammatory neurodegenerative disorders, suggesting that something is causing the immune system to overreact in a detrimental way—sometimes fatally.

    – Between June 1, 2006 and December 31, 2008, there were 12,424 reported adverse events following Gardasil vaccination, including 32 deaths. The girls, who were on average 18 years old, died within two to 405 days after their last Gardasil injection
    – Between May 2009 and September 2010, 16 additional deaths after Gardasil vaccination were reported. For that timeframe, there were also 789 reports of “serious” Gardasil adverse reactions, including 213 cases of permanent disability and 25 diagnosed cases of Guillain-Barre Syndrome
    – Between September 1, 2010 and September 15, 2011, another 26 deaths were reported following HPV vaccination
    – As of May 13, 2013, VAERS had received 29,686 reports of adverse events following HPV vaccinations, including 136 reports of death,7, as well as 922 reports of disability, and 550 life-threatening adverse events”

    Apparently the CDC study of the first 32 deaths mentioned has written off all of them as attributable to something else.

    I also understand it seems to either cause systemic HPV infections in some recipients, or somehow make pre-existing infections flare up and become worse.

    Here’s a few references pointing to concerns, not hyperlinked:

    Japanese References:

    Cervix vaccine issues trigger health notice

    Japan not to promote cervical cancer vaccination

    Other nations suspend HPV vaccines:

    India Suspends Gardasil Program After Four Deaths and Complications in 120 Girls

    Spain suspends batch of Gardasil following illness

    Experts question HPV vaccination:

    Experts cast doubt on claim for ‘wonder’ cancer jabs

    Call to review cancer vaccine after Germany demands more medical proof

    HPV Vaccine Questions Cannot Be Answered Without Further Research

    Just wondering what the science of relative risk can tell us here between risks of ARs vs the risks of the wild disease……..

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Skeptical Raptor

      Because Americans are weakling who need to blame everyone.Guillain Barre has nothing to do with Gardasil, but if you actually had the brains to research this with an open mind, which you do not have, you’d know that.

      Basically Sean you’re a pretend intellect who throws around bullshit new age propaganda and post-modernism, but hasn’t a clue as to what real science is. In your closed mind, establish an a priori conclusion then hunting down every nonsense source to support is your thing.

      For me, that’s just lazy crap pushed by a pseudoscience loving internet troll. Enjoy yourself.

    • Steve Jones

      You rattle off a bunch of assertions there. Care to cite your sources on what you are asserting? I prefer to research information in stead of just taking what someone says at face value.

  • http://www.facebook.com/exohuman Exo Human

    Why is the voice of self-satisfied ignorance always so strident? What an embarrassingly cringe-making post.

    “Be aware that homeopaths, naturopaths, chiropractors, and other
    pseudoscience based woo-meisters are simply not knowledgeable about real
    diagnostic and treatment options, and should always be ignored.”

    Where do I start..?

    Nearly 800,000 Americans die each year at the hands of
    government-sanctioned medicine. Vioxx, prescribed by “evidence-based medicine” killed over 60,000 Americans – more than the Vietnam War.

    Your views are worse than inconsequential, worse than naive, ill-informed and arrogant. They are dangerous.

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  • Jock Doubleday
    • Smimsey

      Clearly, you did not read a single line written in this post. YIKES.

      • Peter

        Clearly, you do not care about the RIGHTS OF PARENTS!!!!!

    • Peter

      How many lives do you think he’ll save by his whistle-blowing? Hundreds of thousands or millions?

  • Remo

    I’m curious. What if anything would be acceptable to disprove one vaccine? From what I can see this *one vaccine* is under question. Not 2 vaccines, not the entirety of the body research of on every vaccine ever issued, published, produced, etc., just this one single vaccine. The author claims that it is ineffective and given that it is a vaccine it carries risk (note: ALL vaccines carry some risks and side effects).

    So the “reasoned” response to this is “OH MY GOD THEY ARE BRINGING BACK POLIO!!! LIGHT THE TORCHES AND KILL THEM ALL!!!! HERETICS!!!! EVIL!!!! EVIL!!!!!

    This *one* vaccine is being questioned with this study. Not the shot for polio, or small pox, or tetanus, this one HPV shot. They are saying it is ineffective and the industry people new it and promoted it anyway to make money. Making money is a very good reason to push a product and companies have stretched the truth about the effectiveness and concealed obvious risks for many many years about many different medicines and products. Why is it wrong to question this one? Why is questioning a single vaccine, yes ANY single vaccine tantamount to every moron out there saying that anyone who does so believes we should throw away all vaccines and move back into caves? Shouldn’t this be settled with actual human trials and testing so as to weigh risk vs. reward? Is blind acceptance of anything big company inc. decides to put into that needle the only acceptable correct way of thinking permissable for you idiots?

    • Yurko

      He’s skeptical, so he firmly believe in the goodness of all vaccines (brought to you by pharma corporations). As a skeptic, he’s also convinced that anyone who might have something against even a single vaccine is a brainwashed evil asshole cult member.

      Skeptics gonna skeptic, you know.

      • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Skeptical Raptor

        Brilliant deduction. Brilliant ad hominem and strawman argument. And damn, you went full Big Pharma shill.

        here’s the thing. If you don’t have one tiny piece of evidence, and you don’t, you go for the logical fallacy. Do you feel good about yourself?

        • Yurko

          Repent, ye unbelievers in the God of Science!
          Praise his son, Logic! Worship his spirit, Evidence!
          Lest the Devil named Logical Fallacy will smite thee.

          • Mudhooks

            Yes. You are obviously the sanest spoon in the drawer.

          • Sean Reynolds

            You sure ain’t.

        • Remo

          S.R. – you answered the easy question no answer the hard one… Has the HPV vaccine been through human testing trials that compared tangible outcomes against a placebo group? No, this hasn’t been done because why? Why is this acceptable for other types of medication but not for this vaccine? Now there are serious questions that compare the rates of actual cervical cancer numbers in 2003 and 2012 and those numbers have gone UP not down and this is with the vaccine in wide distribution.

          I am sure you can explain away the *increase* in the incidence of HPV cervical cancer with the same logic of the anti-elephant stampede totem (Gosh! If you didn’t have THIS TOTEM to protect you against elephant stampedes last nights elephant stampede would have been much MUCH worse! Buy another!).

          But you can use such a method to prove anything. Shouldn’t rates be going down not up? And again why no human trials for vaccines with placebo groups? How do you compare via the scientific method actual risk vs. reward without this?

          • Mudhooks
          • Sean Reynolds

            In the blinded human studies, apparently the placebo chosen was the full vaccine with adjuvants minus just the pathogen itself, rather than, for instance, something known to be completely safe like saline solution or similar. This is a new trick of the pharmaceutical companies, and to a scientist or just about anyone it should be an obvious one, arousing great suspicion — why would you make a placebo a concoction of all the adjuvants you intend to use — UNLESS you thought there was a safety problem with them that you wanted to cover up. Clearly this is a deep flaw in the safety trials and all such trials conducted with this approach, and it is bad science. You would need to add a new placebo involving a more or less known to be completely harmless and inert substance to be jabbed to make the trials legitimate — it is just possible to re-analyse the existing data on that footing, I suppose, although the temporal aspect will be violated and some study protocol bureaucrat would complain — but then neither the CDC nor Merck has any reason to want to do a genuine safety trial, now do they?

          • Mudhooks

            Complete and utter bullshit. The vaccines have been proven in study after study to be completely safe. And people like you are the cause of the illness and death of thousands. As someone who nearly died from Measles before we had the luxury of vaccines, and had friends and relations who were mained for life or died from Polio, I can say that the world is better with vaccines. With any luck, governments will make vaccines compulsory for any child that there is not a valud medical reason not to.

            You are ignorant and promoting misery and death.

          • Sean Reynolds

            So I’m ignorant, am I? Why don’t you substantiate your ‘study after study’ remark with a list of these studies and their sponsors? Given there’s plenty of ongoing studies questioning it — being undertaken in the community after the thing has already been rolled out rather than in the Phase I-III trials where they should have been conducted.

            You are also conflating the effects of a polio vaccine with measles and with HPV, all different diseases with different risks, different vaxes, and different risks with the vaxes.

            This is the halo effect again — one safe or unsafe vax which may be effective against a serious disease does not make all vaxes safe or effective by implication, you’re an idiot if you believe that — which apparently you do.

            It’s possible to unpack the rhetoric and propaganda around all of measles, polio and HPV and the respective safety and efficacy of all 3 vaxes. You claim to have nearly died of measles — and yet the measles death rate is less than 1 in 100,000 cases, and has been so since the 1960s. And here you are, not maimed, not dead, but immune to measles for life. Everyone I know my age caught measles, I personally have never heard about a death or even a disability in my cohort from it. However, the MMR vax adverse reaction and death rate appears to be considerably higher on a truly scientific investigation of the epidemics of ARs and late onset infantile regressive autism occurring immediately after a vax event.

            India is still handing out the live virus oral polio vaccine — and there are now over 50,000 cases of ‘non-polio’ flaccid paralysis in the children treated in the program. Further, 95% of people don’t even know they’ve contracted polio, 5% will have symptoms similar ot a cold, and of those a few will contact paralysis. In fact, 5% will get symptoms, and in children 0.5% of those may become paralysed, representing 0.025% of all cases. Polio was largely spread by poor sanitation and urban crowding — sanitation (clean water, sewerage, washing hands, quarantine of cases) was greatly improving in the West by the 1940s and 50s as a response to a number of diseases in the light of ‘germ theory’, bringing down the rate of cases and serious cases dramatically and exponentially, before the vax was developed — this being a non-invasive public health intervention, i.e. you cannot die or be maimed from improving the quality of drinking water or adding proper sewerage and observing better personal hygiene.

            And we’ve covered HPV previously.

            So hardly very scientific or thoughtful of you, is it? And yet you hector and castigate others about your unconsidered views.

            You can be as stupid and unscientific and unresearched as you like, just don’t parade it so blatantly in public and attempt to debate your uninformed and thoughtless views.

          • Sean Reynolds

            erm, you’ve committed several errors of logic and forms of illegitimate argumentation yourself on this thread, and presumably many others, ‘skeptical raptor’. Double standards much?

          • Derek Williamson

            Numerous human trials are conducted before any drug or vaccine hits the market; it’s a fairly rigorous process.

            However, a controlled double-blind study for vaccine effectiveness is highly unethical, as anyone with basic scientific knowledge would readily understand. You would have to expose each group to the virus, and observe who contracted it… Or, you could conduct a long-term study, in which half of the group believes they are immune to a virus, and makes sexual decisions based on that false belief… Both are incredibly unethical.

            There have never been double-blind studies on the effectiveness of child’s car seats, as an example, either… but they undoubtedly save lives. Instead, we use statistical evidence to infer the effectiveness and/or safety of these kinds of interventions.

            Why have cervical cancer rates continued to rise? Because they are not vaccinating the entire population, and the penetration rate of the vaccine is still low, even amongst the target populations:
            “Since the approval of Gardasil in 2006 and despite low vaccine uptake, prevalence of HPV among teenagers aged 14–19 has been cut in half with an 88% reduction among vaccinated women. No decline in prevalence was observed in other age groups, indicating the vaccine to have been responsible for the sharp decline in cases. The drop in number of infections is expected to in turn lead to a decline in cervical and other HPV-related cancers in the future.” – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HPV_vaccines#Vaccine_implementation

    • Antaeus_Feldspar

      Hmmm, seems you have a bit of a double standard, Remo.

      Between your address of “you idiots”, and your bringing into the conversation as if it was relevant someone’s hysterical all-caps ranting about bringing back polio, it seems clear that you aren’t holding Skeptical Raptor responsible for what HE says, but rather for what gets said by ANYONE who shares his pro-vaccine views (including almost certainly imaginary pro-vaccine people – although if you can present us with evidence of a pro-vaccine person ACTUALLY advocating “light the torches and kill them all” in reference to anti-vaxers, please, feel free to produce the evidence.)

      But at the same time, you say “only *this one* vaccine is under question”, as if somehow THIS set of accusations from a dubious source against a vaccine were somehow SEPARATE from any other accusations made against any other vaccines, INCLUDING those trumpeted by the very same people who are now trumpeting Dalberge’s “study” (exactly how is it a “study”, BTW?)

      But let’s set aside for the moment the hypocrisy of your stance. One may well ask, “isn’t it right that a claim should be accepted, or dismissed, based on its own merits, rather than how previous claims of that nature have panned out?” And the answer is in fact “Yes.” Yes, ultimately each claim must be judged on its own merits.

      But only a fool would try to tell us that we MUST NOT learn from experience about which claims are apt to be substantiated and which are not. “Well, we’ve had someone run into the village square crying ‘Wolf! Wolf!’ each of the past 582 days. Each and every time we went out to investigate. On none of these occasions did we ever find evidence which suggested the actual presence of a wolf within the past twenty-four hours. So I’m guessing that today’s ‘wolf’ isn’t actually a wolf eith-” “YOU IDIOTS! This is only *one wolf sighting* we’re talking about! Those other 582 times have no relevance! Your skepticism that THIS sighting will turn out to be a real actual wolf just shows you’re a bad person who doesn’t take wolves seriously enough!”

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  • Toni Reid

    No evidence of Guillain Barre being associated with HPV? Why did these lawyers get a six figure payout for this woman? http://central-pennsylvania.legalexaminer.com/fda-prescription-drugs/are-gardasil-side-effects-just-part-of-the-greatest-medical-scandal-of-all-time/

  • Thelma

    As soon as you can post a study that is NOT funded by the pharmaceutical companies that produce them, I will believe your post BUT not until then.

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Skeptical Raptor

      Thelma, I can do whatever I want. I’m not going listen to random lunatics and psychopaths on the internet.

      I know you will sell out for $20, but most people I know couldn’t be swayed by millions of dollars from Big Pharma. I get swayed by evidence and scientific facts.

      It doesn’t matter what I present to you. You’re so close-minded, it would take a crowbar to pry open your anti-scientific lunacy.

      • Sean Reynolds

        Your claims seem highly unlikely, ‘skeptical raptor’, the more I read about your devotion to ‘evidence and facts’ constructed by moneyed vested interests. Postmodernism of course tells us there are no such ‘facts’, just social constructions of convenience, and absolute scientific rigour is a rarity when vast sums of money are at stake as is so often the case in the world of medicine. Not sure how you know an anonymous random guest will ‘sell out for $20′ either? Another form of illegitimate argumentation?

        • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Skeptical Raptor

          Post modernism is bullshit. I know how people sell out because they apply their moral standards to me and others. Frankly, if Big Pharma dropped $10 million on this website, guess what–I’d still call you a big fat dumb fuck.

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    • Sean Reynolds

      why is it great? they won’t even know how effective it might have been on the upside for another 10-20 years. then I’ve listed a dozen reasons above why it’s not great. And there are more.

      • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Skeptical Raptor

        If the effectiveness wanes, then we can give boosters. But already there are newer, more powerful versions of the anti-cancer drug called Gardasil.

        You’re employing a logical fallacy, a from of the argument from ignorance. Because we haven’t prevented cancer 50 years from now with Gardasil, only 10-15 years, it must be worthless. Get rid of it, and let women and men die of some aggressive cancer.

        Why is it you anti-vaccine types don’t care about human lives? I’ve never seen a group with such a high level of sociopathy.