Gardasil DNA and aluminum – myth debunking time

Here we go again. Anti-Gardasil activists and other vaccine deniers are attempting, once again, to make specious claims about the HPV anti-cancer vaccine. This time claiming that Gardasil DNA and aluminum somehow interacted to kill a young child.

This time, it’s a claim filed in United States Court of Federal Claims Office of Special Masters, as a part of the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (NVICP), that an injection of the Gardasil vaccine lead to the death of a young male the next day.

As tragic as that death is, and all children’s deaths are tragic, let’s take a look at the evidence being used here. Of course, I’m not a Special Master in the Federal Court System (admittedly, I want that title), I’m not an attorney (nor do I pretend to be one on the internet), and the NVICP has some complex rules and decisions processes. It’s never simple, and remember, the NVICP, or any court for that matter,  lacks the privilege of deciding what is good science. 

So what did Gardasil do this time?


Well, if you believe in anti-vaccine websites, Gardasil (see this article for a large breadth of Gardasil myth debunking) caused a myocardial infarction in young male, Joel Gomez, the day after the vaccine was given to Gomez. According to the vaccine denying website, Gomez was a:

[infobox icon=”quote-left”]healthy boy who had regular visits to the pediatrician’s office for periodic check-ups since birth showed no evidence of any pre-existing health issues, specifically no evidence of cardiac abnormalities, psychological disorders or substance abuse. The teenager had been training for the high school football team from four to five hours a day for the two months prior to his death without incident.[/infobox]

At this point, I’d wonder if Gardasil was the causal factor, but, as I mention frequently, one has to show a high level of biological plausibility before we can even determine correlation, let alone causation. And this is just one case, which makes any determination of causality pretty much impossible.

However, the autopsy report, from the medical examiner (coroner) of Los Angeles County, seems to come to another conclusion:

[infobox icon=”quote-left”]…a long narrow band of dark reddish discoloration which is somewhat darker than the rest of the myocardium, extends over a length of 6 cm and has a width of 0.4 cm extending from the anterior base of the heart almost to the apex. ..this lesion is limited to the anterior free wall. Both lungs are extremely heavy. The lung parenchyma is dark-purple-red and completely soaked with edema fluid and blood. Microscopically, a localized lesion was found in the left ventricle of the heart.

The Decedent died of myocarditis, which apparently was completely asymptomatic. By histology, the disease had been present for at least several days or weeks. The cause is unknown.[/infobox]

So, the medical examiner, someone who actually trained in determining cause of death, when they can, said it was caused by myocarditis.

Myocarditis is an inflammation of the heart muscle, caused usually by an infection. There are many signs and symptoms of the disease, some of which are obvious, such as arrhythmias, and some so nonspecific that they are probably ignored by an outwardly healthy young man. Some symptoms could even be confused for the flu.

Many times the disease is asymptomatic for a long period of time, occasionally leading to sudden death. Surprisingly, myocarditis is the cause of approximately 20% of sudden deaths in young adults.

In other words, the simplest and best explanation of his death is an underlying myocarditis, which lead to a sudden myocardial infarction. And that’s not me claiming that, but an expert, someone who actually did the autopsy, a trained medical examiner.

The story should just end there, the myocardial infarction was almost certainly not related to the vaccine. But for the anti-vaccination cult, stories never just end, they go on with the lamest of evidence.


The lame evidence

A Southern California law firm took the case to present it to the NVICP, which is how the system should work to ascertain whether there is a vaccine-related injury. I have no problem with that.

The law firm then hired an “expert witness” to perform an independent examination of the medical examiner’s report. Further, the “expert witness” performed additional tests to “prove” that the HPV vaccine was responsible.

The expert witness, Sin Hang Lee, MD, F.R.C.P.(C), FCAP, Director Milford Molecular Diagnostics Laboratory, has an interesting background. He’s done significant research into Lyme disease, and, as far as I can tell, has not fallen into the black hole called “chronic Lyme disease,” a malady that lacks any supporting evidence. However, his DNA testing for Lyme disease bacterium, Borrelia burgdorferi and and Borrelia miyamotoi, seems to be based on his own research rather than a broad base of clinical research. I might look into his Lyme disease research at a later time, but Lyme disease is not the point of this article.

Dr. Lee has written several articles about HPV and DNA testing. Of those published articles, only two are specifically about Gardasil and his testing procedures. The first one attempts to claim that the HPV fragments in the vaccine bind to the aluminum adjuvant. If this were true, it really has no meaning, since the amount is biologically unimportant, and is cleared quickly. Moreover, the study is published in a minor journal with a low impact factor, and his “research” has not been cited or repeated by anyone in the last two years. It’s difficult for me to see clinical significance of his research.

His second article, also published in a low impact journal, is very similar to the article discussed above. It has not been repeated, but has been used by anti-vaccination researchers as “evidence” that, without any biological plausibility, somehow the antigen-aluminum complex has some clinical importance. Which, of course, has never been shown, but that’s how these people roll.

But there are bigger issues. Neither of those papers give us a detailed description of how these tests are done, and how he got the results. There are some pretty graphs, but no controls, no anything that would provide the reader with the methods behind his results. This probably is why it’s not been repeated.

Dr. Lee makes an incredible claim that,

[infobox icon=”quote-left”]Natural HPV DNA does not remain in the bloodstream for very long. However, the HPV DNA in Gardasil is not ‘natural’ DNA. It is a recombinant HPV DNA (rDNA) – genetically engineered – to be inserted into yeast cells for VLP (virus-like-particle) protein production. rDNA is known to behave differently from natural DNA. It may enter a human cell, especially in an inflammatory lesion caused by the effects of the aluminum adjuvant, via poorly understood mechanisms.

Once a segment of recombinant DNA is inserted into a human cell, the consequences are hard to predict. It may be in the cell temporarily or stay there forever, with or without causing a mutation. Now the host cell contains human DNA as well as genetically engineered viral DNA.[/infobox]

I’m sorry, but that’s utter bullshit (oh, I mean nonsense, ignorant nonsense). If Dr. Lee actually knew anything about DNA, he would understand that it is incredibly difficult to insert DNA into human cells just from the blood. If it were so easy, gene therapy would be a miracle medical treatment today. But there’s that issue that we eat DNA all day long, and it never gets inserted into human DNA.

More than that, the HPV antigen used is…hold on…a protein. And unless somehow I missed something in biochemistry during my undergraduate and graduate education proteins are not DNA.

But it gets worse. The mysterious purveyor of real science, Orac,  closely examined  Lee’s DNA work, and found it wanting. For example, Orac pointed out that Lee found only one fragment of the rDNA sequence. That would be incredible, except if the whole sequence contaminated the vaccine, then Lee should have found hundreds, if not thousands, of different fragments. It stretches the imagination to think that one tiny fragment was the ONLY contamination.

All of these claims are so ridiculous that I can’t believe I’m wasting a nanosecond in refuting it. I guess he took his cue from the ridiculous pseudoscience foisted on us by the anti-GMO crowd.

So the whole basis of his “Danger Will Robinson” attitude about  HPV recombinant DNA fragment being attached to aluminum is utter nonsense. It frustrates me how so called scientists want to oversimplify very complex ideas so that it fits their narrative.

But there’s more. Dr. Lee is associated with SANEVax, possibly one of the most irresponsible anti-vaccination groups on this planet (and there are so many choices). And they have been pushing this HPV DNA trope for at least 5 years. If Dr. Lee were really an expert in HPV DNA, he’d disassociate himself from INSANEVax, run large scale clinical trials, and then publish peer reviewed articles that establish a correlation, along with biological causation between something and this DNA observation.

Let me make this simple – until Dr. Lee actually shows us his results, his methods, and someone else repeats his results, no credible scientist is going to accept his SANEVax claims. They just don’t qualify as good science.

Refuting Dr. Lee’s refuting of ME report

But back to case of Joel Gomez. Dr. Lee makes several claims, based on really limited evidence:

  1. Gardasil causes hypotension. No it doesn’t. And relying upon the package insert is amateurish at best, deceitful at worse. Package inserts do not establish causality.
  2. Molecular mechanism of Gardasil-induced hypotension and sudden unexpected death. Once again, he bases his claims on unproven claims about the aluminum adjuvant. It’s like he took his wild beliefs right out of the anti-vaccination playbook. The whole aluminum “manufactroversy” has been debunked. And where is the scientific consensus about Dr. Lee’s claims? Why is it that no other immunologist, virologist, epidemiologist has observed this? And taking quotes out of context from the CDC and a package insert is amusing.
  3. Gardasil vaccination was the most likely cause of the decedent’s death. This is the crux of the matter. Dr. Lee disputes the conclusions of a well-trained medical examiner (Dr. Lee is NOT a medical examiner by training), without first-hand observation. Dr.  Lee utterly dismisses the presence of observations of pre-existing myocardial infarctions, long before the vaccine was delivered. Yes, some myocardial infarctions can be tolerated, especially in a child – if the underlying cause is ignored, then causes a fatal and sudden death, we’re supposed to overlook the evidence that Joel Gomez might have had a lingering case of myocarditis. Especially when there’s evidence of that myocarditis?

I am not a medical examiner, nor do I play one on TV. And his analysis probably would be close to one I’d see on TV.


Gardasil DNA and aluminum – TL;DR

  • The Los Angeles County medical examiner, who actually did the autopsy, found that Joel Gomez had an underlying and undiagnosed case of myocarditis.
  • Myocarditis can lead to sudden death in teens and young adults. In fact, 20% of cases of sudden death in that age group is related to myocarditis.
  • Myocarditis is generally caused by an infectious diseases. There is NO published evidence that it’s related to any vaccination, especially HPV.
  • Dr. Lee’s hypothesis that some HPV DNA particle links to aluminum lacks two things: repetition by another, independent, researcher, and clinical importance. Who cares if the DNA is linked to aluminum, it’s just using big words to scare us. Unless someone says “hey this is why we are concerned, and here’s 2000 data points from a double blind, randomized clinical trial,” this barely rises to the level of observation.
  • Dr. Lee is supported by SANEVax, a notorious anti-vaccine gang. This, itself, doesn’t negate Dr. Lee’s work, but when added to his biases and lack of clinical research, it does point me in a direction of “this doesn’t smell right.”

SANEVax and Dr. Lee have been in bed together for a long time. David Gorski took on this nonsense 5 years ago (please read the article, it goes into more detail about Dr. Lee’s nonsense about HPV DNA). And here’s what Dr. Gorski had to say about HPV DNA and aluminum:

[infobox icon=”quote-left”]Wow. Sounds pretty scary, doesn’t it? Actual HPV DNA! But not just any HPV DNA. Oh, no. We’re talking recombinant HPV-11 and HPV-18 residues, which–horror of horrors!–were attached to the dreaded aluminum adjuvant! Stop the factories! Stop injecting our little girls with that evil vaccine whose only purpose is to encourage them to go out and have unprotected sex, knowing that they won’t get HPV!

Now hold on just a minute. I got a little carried away.[/infobox]

Snark and sarcasm. Makes my day.

It’s not up to me to determine if Dr. Lee’s “review” has the authority of an expert witness. The Special Masters will do that, and they might bring in better trained experts to refute the claims. My guess is that the Special Masters are going to question Dr. Lee’s credentials and “research.”

And once again, a laughable anti-vaccination claim bites the dust.

Key citations:

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The Original Skeptical Raptor
Chief Executive Officer at SkepticalRaptor
Lifetime lover of science, especially biomedical research. Spent years in academics, business development, research, and traveling the world shilling for Big Pharma. I love sports, mostly college basketball and football, hockey, and baseball. I enjoy great food and intelligent conversation. And a delicious morning coffee!
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  • Justthefacts

    The most amazing thing about the whole HPV vaccines issue is that among all the hubbub and screeds being published about Gardasil and the HPV vaccine, there has not be a single injury confirmed in the U.S. from Garadsil or any HPV vaccine.

    Not one. Not anywhere, Not after 67 million vaccinations.

    There have been 93 cases brought before the vaccine court, with its low standard for evidence, and not a single case could show an injury due to Garadsil. You can try to call it a conspiracy, but nearly every other vaccine has cases of injury. Nobody is or can be hiding anything about other vaccines, but Garadsil stands alone with ZERO injuries and “not applicable” on the vaccine injury list.

    That is a solid, undeniable fact that no anti-vaxxer will publish. It clearly appears that after 67 million vaccinations, the HPV vaccine is the safest vaccine ever invented.

  • Oh, you’re that asshole. You’re blocked dumbass.

  • Pingback: Myth-busting Gardasil safety and efficacy – Skeptical Raptor()

  • Spencer James Smith

    welcome people,
    to a page where people look up in wonder and awe at whatever someone in a position
    of authority says is true. they worship with their bill nye shirts, they have
    wet dreams about peer reviewed studies and believe that only what is the
    majority opinion is truth. they show their subservience when faithfully asking
    for a peer reviewed study to back up a claim. they dutifully tort what they
    have been told is the scientific consensus. they make decisions based on their
    experiences and intuition daily, but when it comes to what the government and
    mainstream media has told them must be decided for them by science, they
    listen. one must not ever ask why the federal government has merck and monsanto
    employees working for them. one must never believe a conspiracy, that is a sin.
    for we believe that conspiracies have happened all throughout history, but it
    cannot happen in our time. we will believe when the government decides to tell
    us that they are corrupt. it is written that “whatever the peer reviewed
    studies and scientific body claims is truth. amen” can i get an amen? we
    know that there has been corruption in science in the past in europe with the
    political power murdering those that claimed the earth was not the centre of
    the universe. but we do not speak of this. we are so glad to live in a time
    where conspiracy and corruption are impossible, the government loves us and
    that it is not possible for the government involvement in science to be
    corrupt. we could not be more thankful to the God of science for making this
    time on earth so special where there is no lies from those in power, and what
    is said by the majority of scientists is always the truth. we will do whatever
    thou requires. if a peer reviewed study says that i am mickey mouse, i am
    mickey mouse. amen.

    • Did you flunk science? But wow, you really passed logical fallacies.

      LOL. You’re blocked at any rate. What a moron.

    • Chris Preston

      Welcome, but only for a short time I fear.

      You might get more traction if you posted one shorter post, well written in paragraphs and with actual evidence that discusses the issues presented.

      Otherwise you look like a troll.

      Always happy to help.

      • properdoctor

        Your post does somewhat support Spencer’s observations of arrogance, complacency and denial in the face of adversity, do you not think?

        • When did actual data and evidence supplied by experts in their field become something to protest against? When did science become something that should ever be affected by public opinion rather than the scientific consensus?

          Does fraud happen? Yes. Are lies told? Yes. But will the truth be found when the lies are exposed? Yes. That’s how science works. And until you have published even a single paper and survived the rigors if peer review, best you just stfu.

          • properdoctor

            AAAh, ‘the appeal to experts fallacy’. I like the way they ‘supply it’ too. There are lots of reasons why the ‘expert fallacy’ is flawed as an appeal to authority.

            It is rather spooky that you think science should be free from public opinion, you are risking the implementation of Godwin’s law with that one. Thank you for explaining how science breaks the law with its arrogant assumption that science knows best.

            Bit like reading some biblical manifesto, did you write that all yourself. It does have rather a lilt of ‘research’ about the syntax of the script.

            I am waiting

            • Justthefacts

              An “appeal to experts fallacy’ does not have footnotes. The article does not say “trust the experts”, it says that experts have other opinions and HERE THEY ARE. To call it an appeal to authority is just telling us that you can’t understand the science and only see the argument alone.

              That is your shortcoming, not the authors.

    • properdoctor

      Did you not know that editors of medical peer reviewed journals are now coming out and saying most of what they publish is nonsense?

      • Katia

        Your link itself is an opinion piece. Could/should peer review be tightened up? Yes. Is it useless? No. It references “The Lancet” which got screwed by Wakefield. Maybe they should tighten up.

        • Graceds

          You forgot about Dr Marcia Angell.
          “It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine.”

          • Katia

            It’s still just opinion, Gracie!

            • Graceds

              True, but not my opinion, or Kathy’s, it’s the opinion of the former editor in chief of NEJM.

            • Justthefacts

              FORMER editor. That is what the FBI calls a “clue”.

          • Kathy

            Dr Angell was referring to such research as that done by the likes of Christopher Shaw and Lucija Tomljenovic:


            Or Mark Geier


            Or pretty much any of the “research” used by antivaxers.

            • Graceds

              Cite Dr Angell on these individuals.

            • Kathy

              That is the type of research she meant. Shoddy research. Research published in pay to publish and low ranking journals. If you do not understand, I would highly recommend you find a research methods course at a local university and take it.

            • Graceds

              Your opinion.
              No citation.

        • properdoctor

          The opinion of the ex editor of the BMJ “most of what is published is utter nonsense” is quite compelling. Considering peer review is the opinion of peers, collectively, I would think that the editor saying that most of the opinions of the peer reviewers is utter nonsense – means something.

          Or that means peer review opinion is fact and editor’s opinion of peer review opinion is only opinion!

          Thanks for exposing that fallacy more, LOL

      • Justthefacts

        So you don’t know how to read a journal and tell the difference between opinions and science. Why am I not surprised?

      • Justthefacts

        From that link (Closing statement):

        “Dr Trish Groves, the current head of research at BMJ said that,
        while peer review wasn’t perfect, it was “still the best way to help
        research funders, conference organisers, and journal editors decide
        which studies to support and disseminate and to help readers, the
        public, patients, and healthcare providers decide what evidence to use in decision making.””

    • Justthefacts

      It is not necessary for a peer reviewed journal to say you are mickey mouse. You have made that self-evident.

      If you have anything other than insults and jabs, let us know. Most of us here are evidence based.

      • VikingAPRNCNP

        He insulted micky by placing himself on the same plane….

        Micky has at least 1 SD greater iq.

  • Spencer James Smith

    Doctors and
    Scientists with Concerns About Vaccines

    Shizuo Akira, MD, PhD

    David Amaral, PhD, MIND Institute, UC-Davis

    François-Jérôme Authier, Professor, PhD

    David Ayoub, MD, Radiologist

    Anne-Catherine Bachoud-Levia, PhD

    Toni Bark, MD

    David S. Baskin, PhD

    Denis Bedoret, PhD

    Russell Blaylock, MD, CCN, former clinical assistant
    professor of neurosurgery at the University of Mississippi Medical Center in
    Jackson, MS. and is currently a visiting professor of biology at Belhaven
    University, Jackson, MI

    Mary Ann Block, DO

    T. Bobrowicz, PhD

    Kenneth Bock, MD

    Marie-Françoise Boissea, PhD

    Subbarao Bondada, PhD

    Jeff Bradstreet, MD

    Pierre Brugierese, PhD

    Julie Buckley, MD

    Thomas Burbacher, MD

    Fabrice Bureau, PhD

    Rashid Buttar, DO, FAAPM, FACAM, FAAIM

    Stephanie F. Cave, MS, MD, FAAFP

    E. Cernichiari, PhD

    Pierre Cesaroa, PhD

    Lakshman Chelvarajan

    T. Chen, PhD

    Xavier Chevalierf, PhD

    Shiv Chopra, MSc, PhD

    Stephanie Christner, DO

    T. Clarkson, PhD

    John Barthelow Classen, MD

    Cevayir Coban, PhD

    Maryline Couettea

    Andy Cutler, PhD (research chemist)

    Jeffrey Dach, MD

    Josep Dalmau, MD, PhD

    Vicky DeBold, PhD, RN

    Jamie Deckoff-Jones, MD

    Christophe J Desmet, PhD

    Mary Catherine DeSoto, PhD

    Richard Deth, PhD

    J.G. Dórea, PhD

    Peter Doshi, PhD Johns Hopkins School of Medicine

    M. Duszczyk, PhD

    Steven Edelson, MD, Director of the Autism Research Institute in
    San Diego

    (The late) Mayer Eisenstein, MD

    (The late) Frank Engley Jr. PhD

    Håkan Eriksson, PhD

    Christopher Exley, PhD

    Carl Feinstein, MD

    Peter Fletcher, PhD, former Chief Scientific Officer, at the UK
    Department of Health

    Lisa Freund, PhD

    Paula A. Garay, PhD

    Robert F. Garry, PhD

    Thomas V. Getchell, PhD

    Romain K. Gherardi, Professor, head of the department of
    Histology, Henri Mondor hospital, Paris, Neuropathologic and Clinical
    activities at the Neuromuscular Disease Reference Center, and is coordinator of
    the Department of Neurosciences INSERM

    Beatrice Golomb, PhD, MD

    Jay Gordon, MD

    K.S. Grant, PhD

    John Green, MD

    Boyd Haley, PhD

    Richard Halvorsen, MD

    Diane Harper, MD, MPH, MS

    (The late) Bernadine Healy, MD

    Martha Herbert, MD, PhD, Professor of neurology at Harvard

    Laura Hewitson, PhD

    Robert T. Hitlan, PhD

    Amy Holmes, MD

    Brian Hooker, PhD

    Mady Hornig, PhD

    Suzanne Humphries, MD

    Mark Hyman, MD

    Philip Incao, MD

    Ken J Ishii, PhD

    Emmanuel Ittie, PhD

    Dr. Jill James, PhD

    Bryan Jepson, MD

    Archie Kalokerinos, MD

    Jerry Kartzinel, MD

    Matthew S. Kayser, MD

    Marcel Kinsbourne, PhD

    Kouji Kobiyama, PhD

    Sheldon B. Korones, MD

    Arthur Krigsman, MD

    Pierre Lekeux, PhD

    A. Lerner, PhD

    N. Liberato, PhD

    S.X. Lin, PhD

    Andrew D. Livingston, PhD

    Yushu Liu, PhD

    Brian J. Lopresti, PhD

    Kurt M. Lucin, PhD

    Patrick Maisona, PhD

    M. D. Majewska, PhD

    Jennifer Margulia, PhD

    Thomas Marichal, PhD

    N. Scott Mason, PhD

    A. Kimberley McAllister, PhD

    Jaquelyn McCandless, MD

    Susan McCreadie, MD

    (The late) Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, MD

    (The late) John Menkes, MD, Former head of pediatric neurology
    at UCLA Medical School. Menkes was also director of pediatric neurology at the
    Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles. In addition, he was a
    member of the Forum for Vaccine Safety with the National Institute of Medicine.

    Joseph Mercola, DO

    Claire Mesnil, PhD

    K. Meyza, PhD

    S. Midha, PhD

    P. Mierzejewski, PhD

    Donald W. Miller, Jr. MD

    Richard Moskowitz, MD

    Elizabeth Mumper, MD, Associate professor of clinical pediatrics
    at the University of Virginia

    Devi S. Nambudripod, MD

    Meryl Nass, MD

    C. Nelson, PhD

    E. Newell, PhD

    Raymond Obomsawin, MSc, PhD

    Tetyana Obukhanych, PhD

    Keiichi Ohata, PhD

    M. Olczak, PhD

    Dr. Mehmet Oz

    Larry Palevsky, MD

    Elodie Passeria, PhD

    Michael S. Petrik, PhD

    Jon Poling, MD

    Diana Popa, PhD

    Massroor Pourcyrous, MD

    Sandy Reider, MD

    (The late) Bernard Rimland, MD

    Aviva Jill Romm, MD

    Robert Rowen, MD

    Catherine Sabatel, PhD

    E. M. Sajdel-Sulkowska, PhD

    Bob Sears, MD

    Martyn A. Sharpe, PhD

    Chris Shaw, Professor, PhD

    DD Shen, PhD

    K. Vijendra Singh, PhD

    Yehuda Shoenfeld, MD, FRCP

    Peter Siesjö, PhD

    Ken Stoller, MD

    Carol Stott, PhD

    Arnold J. Stromberg, PhD

    Z. L. Sulkowski, PhD

    Louise Swarbrick, PhD

    Rena C. Tabata, PhD

    Sherri Tenpenny, DO

    Paul Thomas, MD

    Jaime Tomko, PhD

    Lucija Tomljenovic, PhD

    Anju Usman, MD

    Eva Vanamee, PhD

    Judy Van de Water, PhD, Immunology, UC Davis

    Michelle Veneziano, DO

    Chiara Villac, PhD

    Andrew Wakefield,

    John Walker-Smith, Professor

    Judy Wilyman, PhD candidate

    Margaret C. Wong, PhD

    Tony Wyss-Coray, PhD

    V.C. Yang, PhD

    Amy Yasko, MD

    Edward Yazbak, MD

    Walter Zahorodny, PhD, Assistant Professor of Pediatrics,
    University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey

    A. M. Zavacki, PhD

    • Spamming my page with really worthless people’s names will get you nowhere. And besides asshole, science isn’t a democracy. The only thing that fucking matters is evidence, and you have none. What a maroon.

      • properdoctor

        Like Chris P, Katia, septic raptor, Mikey Stephens, ban them all ban them I hear you say – hang them………………….. Ahmen

        • You’re a self-admitted troll. Your opinion means nothing.

          • Boris Ogon

            It’s Philip Hills, Hope Osteopathic Clinic Essex, again. Jeezums, I didn’t even need to check its scat to ID that one.

            • Chris Preston

              I really don’t know why he bothers. The comments are so lame and predictable that his new sock is immediately recognisable.

              I don’t see any point in responding to him, it is what he is after. Pointing and laughing is a better option.

      • VikingAPRNCNP

        Please ban him. He advocates trolling….

    • Mike Stevens

      Mercola, Wakefraud and a handful of fellow quacks, with a few stray kosher docs who have been misquoted or misinterpreted?
      On the other side would be a list of millions of proper doctors who support vaccines.
      You lose.

      • properdoctor

        So Offit and Bill Gates are heroes! What are you, the Hamas branch of McDonalds or what! Are you gonna walk around with burger belts on and threaten to blow?

        • You’re the one who brought up Offit, a well respected doc; and Bill Gates isn’t a doc, just a generous philanthropist doing something good and productive with his wealth. What’s your point, socktroll?

          • CharlieB1972

            “Are you gonna walk around with burger belts on and threaten to blow?”

            What the actual fuck was that?

            • If be lying if I even pretended to know what that embarrassing sock was trying to say. Happy turkey!

            • CharlieB1972

              You too!

        • Offit has spent most of his life doing research. His rotavirus vaccines saves hundreds of thousands of lives a year.

          What the fuck have you done? Oh wait, make money off of pushing quack remedies. And how many years of study do you have? 2 years of elementary school.

          You’re a moron. Go away troll.

    • Katia

      Who god-d*am cares? There are about 1,000,000 active, practicing doctors in the US and you come up with 50 (if I counted right), some of whom are dead, some of whom aren’t US physicians; and a handful of PhDs in G*d knows what, maybe basket-weaving, who “have concerns” about vaccines.

      • properdoctor

        Size and numbers do not really matter, what does is consistency.

        • Kathy

          Very good point. 100% of international scientific evidence supports that vaccines have far greater benefits than risks. Now, that is consistency!

          • properdoctor

            ‘the scientific peer reviewed evidence fallacy’ is not fact, it is opinion. Of course burger queen are going to say their burgers are best.

            Yes burger queen’s burgers are consistent, I grant you that, but it doesn’t make them food or nutrition, just because it is sold in a restaurant.

            • Justthefacts

              I looked up ” scientific peer reviewed evidence fallacy”. There are zero search results. There is no such thing. You made that up. You live in your own private bubble.

            • He’s just inventing shit.

            • Kathy

              That’s a ridiculous analogy

            • sorry dude, but that’s not a fallacy. I know you quack medicine types like to cherry pick anything that fits your beliefs. And you know what beliefs are? I hope you do, they’re denial of facts.

          • I was kind of thinking that. I was hoping that properdoctor had a proper epiphany. I was wrong.

        • Katia

          What an excuse!

      • properdoctor

        Lot of god there Katia, you need to drop the appeal to authority and post something more credible

        • Katia

          92% of doctors get a flu shot themselves, as do 90% of nurses! How’s that for belief in vaccines.

          • properdoctor

            “The overall HCP influenza vaccination coverage estimate for the 2013–14
            season was 75.2%, similar to the estimate of 72.0% from the previous
            influenza season, but higher than the estimates of 63.5% and 66.9%
            observed for the 2010–11 and 2011–12 seasons,”

            That is a hell of a round up to 92%, what happens where your job is not tied to the vaccine fallacy?

            “49.3% of HCP without a requirement to be vaccinated worked in locations
            that either did not offer vaccination on-site, or if offered, did not
            make vaccination available at no cost”

            Also this is gopher USA where there is employer requirements to get vaccinated, no vaccine no job. If it isn’t free and your job is not dependent, the belief in flu vaccine evaporates, I wonder why?

            • Boris Ogon

              That is a hell of a round up to 92%

              What part of the actual text do you not “understand”?

            • properdoctor

              The bit you are pretending is there, that isn’t.

            • Boris Ogon

              The bit you are pretending is there, that isn’t.

              By occupation, coverage was highest among physicians (92.2%), nurses (90.5%), nurse practitioners and physician assistants (89.6%), pharmacists (85.7%), and “other clinical personnel” (87.4%) compared with assistants and aides (57.7%) and nonclinical personnel (e.g., administrators, clerical support workers, janitors, and food service workers) (68.6%).”

            • Mike Stevens

              Philip clearly has a problem with his vision.
              Perhaps some spinal manipulation would help?

            • Boris Ogon

              Perhaps some spinal manipulation would help?

              My understanding is that “classical osteopathy” of the type embodied here is more about “soft tissue” manipulation.

            • Katia

              The rate of flu vaccination goes down with the educational level of the provider and their proximity to patients. What’s that tell you?

            • Ivan Forsch

              *goes up. It’s a positive correlation.

            • Katia

              Correct! That’s what happens when you post from the car.

            • Ivan Forsch

              Happy Turkey Day, Katia 🙂

            • Justthefacts

              That number applies to “providers”. Learn to read.

    • properdoctor

      That is an impressive list, this kind of knowledge will get you banned! Still it is worth putting their noses in it, over and over again. Just log back on using another name and keep going, it is a lot of fun seeing these people squirm, I am sure it could go viral as a cheap computer game – bash the septics

    • Kathy

      That is a list of literally crazy people, homeopaths, and discredited researchers who have to pay to have their work published. There are a few dead people on that list.

      • Justthefacts

        Have you noticed that nearly all anti-vaxxer arguments are based on having poor math skills? This guy posts a short list of vaccine deniers without understanding that there are over 100,000 doctors supporting vaccines in California alone, not counting researchers. Anti-vaxxers present number arguments without understanding how it is certain that they have clearly already lost on that argument by any measure.

        Can you say “Orders of magnitude”?

    • VikingAPRNCNP

      Mr Wakefield has been stripped of his medical license for fraud and unethical behaviors.

  • Spencer James Smith

    this is under the title “warnings”,
    near the top of page 5. “1. Temperature of ≥40.5°C (105°F) within 48
    hours, not attributable to another identifiable cause.

    2. Collapse or shock-like state (hypotonic-hyporesponsive episode)
    within 48 hours.

    Persistent crying lasting ≥3 hours within 48 hours.

    4. Convulsions with or without fever, occurring within 3 days. ” Do you
    know how many parents I have told me that this exact scenario has happened to
    their kids after getting vaccines? some of them i have gotten to know and
    become actual friends with on facebook. they have pics and videos of the child.
    there are thousands and thousands of these stories and incidents. the process
    describe in this comment IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS when a child or infant gets autism
    after vaccinations. i have heard it. some have miraculously also been awarded
    damages from claiming this exact scenario, in a court that is designed for
    parents to lose. case fricken closed. i can give you all sources for every
    claim in this comment. if some of these mothers didnt want to waste time with
    ignorant stubborn people, they would come on here and tell you their personal
    experience themselves….

    • Bullshit. Not science. Go away asshole.

    • properdoctor

      What you have to do is really piss them off, make their day go tits up. All they are trying to do is up the google hits for antivax dissing and also cherry pick research that they then get removed that shows the vaccine fallacy up. Make sure you don’t post anything they can use, just wind them up and up, over and over until they ban you. then log back in. Get all your friends to do the same, bury them under moderation city.

      • Being an asshole will not help your anti-science fringe cause at all. It just makes you look like a desperate asshole.

        • properdoctor

          Something tells me you are a bit upset. Why don’t you see a councilor?

          • Lol, you’re confusing pity for anger.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Why don’t you see a councilor?”
            Why? Does he have problems with his refuse bin collection, or the library opening hours?

      • VikingAPRNCNP

        Raptor please ban him. Arguably tos violation for advocating troll behaviors…

    • Justthefacts

      Your link is dead and you are a liar. Go away.

  • Spencer James Smith

    Consider this, it is simple. Check the ingredients on the vaccine
    inserts. The flu shot insert still says that thimerosal is an ingredient.
    Thimerosal is about 50% mercury. Do the math. Look at the FDA guidelines for
    dangerous levels of mercury. Then see that the FDA website says that “flu
    vaccines for infants do not contain thimerosal, OR IF THEY DO, they only
    contain trace amounts.” Don’t you see the red flags? Why does the FDA not
    know whether there is going to be thimerosal in vaccines or not? Why does the
    manufacturer not know? That is absolutely ridiculous. Why do they have the
    amounts of some of the ingredients but not the amount of all of them,
    especially thimerosal? What constitutes a “trace amount”? Then they
    say that if it is in vaccines it is only a trace amount. So let me get this
    straight. They claim that thimerosal is not dangerous. Then they took it out of
    most vaccines because the public knew it was dangerous. Then if the FDA truly
    thinks that thimerosal is not dangerous, why are they talking about it as if it
    is dangerous, when they say “but only trace amounts”? When people use
    the word “only” in this type of context, it is to downplay something
    to the listener. This is direct wording from the FDA website. Here is the link.…/SafetyAva… . Its in the
    “Introduction” paragraph.

    Aluminum, animal DNA and formaldehyde. Formaldehyde is a toxic substance
    that is handled as such. Here is a link that explains why… .

    Lets talk about aluminum. Aluminum is in vaccines, its listed on the
    inserts. Dr. Paul Offit (who is a sick individual), says that it is actually
    good for you. Well, science shows otherwise. This Canadian site tries to tell
    you that aluminum is everywhere and is therefore safe.…/publicati

    They say its in breast milk, they say mercury is in fish, blah blah
    blah. What is very deceiving about this is that there is a massive difference
    in these cases. Consuming aluminum through ingestion means that it will go
    through the bodies filters. Also it is not in the form of nano particles that
    the aluminum is in vaccines as an adjuvant. If something is injected directly
    into the blood, it bypasses critical stages of cleansing that the body uses to
    protect itself. How much formaldehyde is in a vaccine? The official government
    web sites will not tell you. They say by the time the vaccine is all made, most
    of the formaldehyde is gone. I thought this was supposed to be scientific, what
    is the amount? Could they not even find an average figure, something a little
    more definitive?

    How much aluminum is in vaccines? “Today, American children end up
    getting a grand total of 6,150 mcg of aluminum if they get all of their recommended
    vaccines.”” By the age of 18 months, that infant has already received
    4,925 micrograms (mcg) of aluminum, 100 percent of which is absorbed since it’s
    given intramuscularly.”

    “Award-winning journalist, Ms. Carly Weeks from the Globe and Mail,
    opened her report by citing a study that had been highlighted on the Children’s
    Medical Safety Research Institute (CMSRI) website, written by the researchers
    in 2013. She wrote:

    Organizations that promote messages about the dangers of vaccines, such
    as the Children’s Medical Safety Research Institute (CMSRI), have used the
    results of the UBC research as evidence that vaccines cause autism and other
    serious harm. The front page of the CMSRI website states that in a “landmark”
    2013 paper, the two UBC researchers show that “the more children receive
    vaccines with aluminum adjuvants, the greater their chance is of developing
    autism, autoimmune diseases and neurological problems later in life.” In that
    study, the researchers note that the rate of autism spectrum disorders
    increased along with the number of pediatric vaccines that contain aluminum.

    Instead of actually researching their paper in depth and quoting what
    the researchers had discovered and how they had come to their conclusions, Ms.
    Weeks continued her vicious attack by cleverly averting her readers’ attention
    away from the 2013 paper, focusing their attention instead on a WHO report
    written in 2012 which referred to two 2011 studies.

    It is a complete mystery as to why such a capable young journalist could
    only find an out-of-date report consisting of a total of three poorly written
    and inaccurate paragraphs to support her argument. Especially since the WHO has
    no solid proof that aluminum adjuvants are safe. In a statement written in
    their paper titled World Health Organization. Weekly and epidemiological record
    7 Jan 2005 in a section titled Global Advisory Committee on Vaccine Safety, 2–3
    December 2004, they admit that they have neglected this subject:”

    • Strawman argument. STFU asshole.

      • properdoctor

        Straw asshole argument

  • Spencer James Smith

    “show me the studies that prove that vaccinations confer benefits above what the immune system itself offers. There simply are none.” – P Amos O

    • Obviously you aren’t intelligent enough to have actually taken immunology. You have no evidence. So you’re a fucking idiot. STFU.

      • properdoctor

        Most of our immune response is non specific, ie snot vomiting, sweating and D and vomiting. Who needs to study that. The sexy bit about macrophages and antibodies is a drop in the ocean, no wonder immunologists are such fuckwits

        • Mike Stevens

          Philip, I am intrigued that you think that your being an osteopath in the UK is tantamount to being a “proper doctor”.

          • seniorcraig

            Neither of you are “proper doctors”. Doctor, as a title, originates from the Latin word of the same spelling and meaning.The word is originally an agentive noun of the Latin verb docēre [dɔˈkeːrɛ] ‘to teach’. It has been used as an honored academic title for over amillennium in Europe, where it dates back to the rise of the first universities. This use spread to the Americas, former European colonies, and is now prevalent in most of the world. Contracted “Dr” or “Dr.”, it is used as a designation for a person who has obtained a doctoral graduate degree (i.e.. Ph.D., Ed.D).

            In contrast, M.D. and D.O. degrees are vocational degrees and thus not considered doctoral degrees.

            • Chris Preston

              But I am a proper doctor.

            • hyperzombie

              Does that line work with the girls???

            • Mike Stevens

              My MD is a doctoral postgraduate thesis. I am in the UK, remember?
              My primary degree is MBChB.

              And here in the UK osteopaths like Philip don’t even have a DO. They are not like osteopaths in the US, who can practice medicine.

            • Boris Ogon

              Neither of you are “proper doctors”. Doctor, as a title, originates from … [W—dia]

              Which, of course, is why Bill Cosby should properly be referred to as “Dr. Cosby.”

              Protip: One can infer a fair amount about a journal by checking whether its acknowledgments have a discernible style.

              In contrast, M.D. and D.O. degrees are vocational degrees and thus not considered doctoral degrees.

              Philip Hills has nothing comparable in any case.

            • Since I’ve generally stuck with the credo, “Ignore All Credentials,” I don’t generally get hung up on who has what. I care only about their reputation in science, and what they’ve published.

              I usually respect someone with any post-graduate degree, because it actually takes a lot of work. However, once they open their mouths (or publish something), my respect goes up or down. Michael Behe has a Ph.D. from Harvard in biochemistry. But he is a total Evolution denier.

              Bob Sears has an MD. I wouldn’t trust my cat to his science-denying medical “knowledge.”

      • Boris Ogon

        C’mon, man:

        Most of our immune response is non specific, ie snot vomiting, sweating and D and vomiting.

        Sound familiar?

    • Mike Stevens

      It’s not that the vaccines necessarily bestow benefits that exceed what natural infection can do (but there are notable exceptions – see below)*.
      It is that vaccines confer the immunity natural infection can provide, without the recipient having to run the same high risks of disease and death in order to gain it.

      *Exceptions include vaccines like typhoid, and tetanus.
      Natural infection with these bestows virtually no immunity whatsoever. Vaccination does, however.
      Mr P Amos O needs to go back to kindergarden.

      • properdoctor

        Your typhoid tetanus fallacy is remarkable. didn’t you read the review of the tetanus vaccine that showed it to be completely useless. Typhoid therapy is 100% rehydration, no one needs a vaccine but they do need clean water you total idiot

        • Tetanus vaccine is useless? Are you fucking joking? You’re dangerously stupid.

        • Mike Stevens

          Unlike you, I am a proper doctor, and have spent many years in the tropics managing patients with typhoid.
          Water is not a cure for Salmonella septicaemia.
          Typhoid kills about half a million people a year.

          Tetanus deaths per year in the US have declined from 500 a year to under 5 per year thanks to universal vaccination. In the developing world, neonatal tetanus kills 180,000 babies a year – and is prevented by maternal vaccination.

          • properdoctor

            Nice appeal to emotion Mikey. Salmonella, in someone previously healthy, is self limiting. I had that as a teenager, yes it was uncomfortable but I was prescribed no medication at all and apart from hydration needed nothing for a full recovery. I would add it was an effective weight loss programme too. Septicaemia from Salmonella only occurs in immune compromised people, either malnourished or old and infirm.

            Unhydrated typhoid kills lots of people, but with hydration people recover. I would hasten to add that drinking sewage doesn’t help either and it is why we don’t have this event much in the Western world, nothing to do with vaccination.

            All your disasters are in the developing world Mikey, ever thought about that? The reviewed evidence tells us that tetanus vaccine is woo. Carry on with it if you like.

            • Boris Ogon

              The reviewed evidence tells us that tetanus vaccine is woo.

              I would enthusiastically recommend that you convincingly test this out on yourself. Remember, no TIG after the fact.

            • Mike Stevens

              You don’t know the difference between Salmonella gastroenteritis, and infection with Salmonella typhi, which is an invasive, septicaemic illness which left untreated with antibiotics is fully capable of killing a high proportion of its victims, even those who are previously well (although of course the malnourished will be more likely to die).

              You talk of evidence… I have yet to see any evidence posted by you for your ridiculously bizarre claims. As a “proper doctor”, no doubt you will have plenty of published, peer-reviewed scientific evidence to draw from.
              Please share some of the “reviewed evidence” that tetanus vaccine is junk.
              And by “reviewed” evidence, I don’t mean evidence that has been looked at by a spotty teenager sat in nothing but his underpants in his parent’s basement, glued to his laptop and surrounded by used tissues.

    • properdoctor

      hear hear

    • Did you even pass high school bio?

  • Spencer James Smith

    Here is a paper by a PhD toxicologist named Dr. Boyd Haley:

    • Link doesn’t work, but then again, it takes like 2nd grade education to post a link. STFU.

      • While these trolls may be amusing in their blatant display of ignorance, I would have neutered them long ago. You have way more patience than me!

    • Mike Stevens

      Boyd Haley is an antivaccine wingnut, and lacks the necessary expertise to claim anything about vaccines anyway.

      • properdoctor

        The Septic rantor is a pro vaccine fallacy believer

        • Justthefacts

          You can’t even post a link. What can you know?

    • properdoctor

      Way to go Spencer, they don’t like it up em

      • VikingAPRNCNP


    • Kathy

      Haley is not a toxicologist. He is a retired professor of chemistry who now tries to peddle a chelating product based on his own whackoodle and dangerous ideas. Thankfully, he is being called out for it.

    • Ahhh, another happy customer for Haley’s woofuckery. Well done.

  • Spencer James Smith

    WikiLies: Skeptical Raptor squelches science

    The accuracy of information concerning the YDB event on the Wikipedia has always suffered from the dominance of a moderator describing himself as “Skeptical Raptor.” Watching the Raptor do his wiki-work has taught the Tusk that cynicism has few bounds — and the truth has few friends (that stay up that late at night). The Raptor constantly cleanses the public’s Wiki of any objective balance on our subject.

    His shortcoming now identified this fellow is not without merit. The Raptor is one of the most forceful vaccine-truth advocates in the blogosphere. And while the Tusk avoids sharing off-subject opinion, I am way down with the Raptor on vaccination and as a subscriber to his blog, appreciate his constant attention to undermining dangerous public health nonsense.

    But this curious contradiction does not absolve the Skeptical Raptor. His character conflicts are not equal. Providing new information is noble and should be the goal of every interested and capable citizen; aggressively suppressing information based on a personal intellectual arrogance is simply despicable.

    • properdoctor

      Well spotted, it is the only way the vaccine fallacy stays alive, by Catholic selective editing

      • Boris Ogon

        Well spotted, it is the only way the vaccine fallacy stays alive, by Catholic selective editing

        Did somebody say “Brentwood Catenians”?

        • properdoctor

          What they really meant was ‘the medical peer review fallacy’ but the spell checker put Catholic in there for some reason, maybe google is catching on?

          • Justthefacts

            There is not such thing as the ‘the medical peer review fallacy’. You made that term up yourself to explain things you don’t understand.

  • Spencer James Smith

    This pro-GMO and pro-“Junk-Science” internet shill from California can be found in his den of iniquity (Wikipedia) underUser:SkepticalRaptor. He self-describes and says he is a member of the “Worldwide Conspiracy” and outright (and appropriately) calls himself a “shill” and an “amateur” under the occupation description he provides. Under his name it says he is “Fighting the good fight, making sure that everyone knows that the earth is 4.5 billion years old, that Tennesseee is still full of sh#t, that pure water potions are useless, and that vaccines do not cause autism.” (1) This is not a doctor or scientist, but someone who studied science and is very dogmatic, selling allopathic philosophies and GMOs as sound science. Skeptical Raptor wants the public to believe that all chemicals are healthy to consume as long as “peer reviewed” articles tell us that they are. He equates the highly experimental and often fraudulent science of vaccines to the cold hard facts of science – like dinosaurs existing or the world being round. Of course, climate change is one of his favorite “straw man” topics, along with chemical pesticides helping feed the world and vaccines saving humanity from infectious diseases. Under his profile, he also self-describes as a “Scoundrel” and a “Jackass.” (2)

    • Mike Stevens

      So sad to see you think the world is 6000 years old, but not really surprised.

  • Spencer James Smith


    • Mike Stevens

      Seeing as how the antiGMO activists don’t care their preferred strategy will lead to the deaths of possibly millions of poor, disadvantaged and non-white people, I think it’s perfectly fair to say there is an unhealthy streak of racism running through their dogma.

      • properdoctor

        Uh, appeals to vaccine efficacy fallacy are not evidence

        • Mike Stevens

          Do you even know what a “fallacy” is?

          • properdoctor

            ‘vaccines save lifes’ is a good example of a fallacy.

            • Mike Stevens


    • Reality022

      Nice ALL CAPS, doofus.
      One can almost envision the spittle dribbling down your chin into your drool bucket.
      Try to work on your exclamation points.
      Have you no shame? Any self-respecting k00k uses plenty of exclamation points and CAPS.

    • VikingAPRNCNP


  • Graceds

    “The teenager had been training for the high school football team from four to five hours a day for the two months prior to his death without incident.”
    This seemed to echo the Denmark possibility, albeit in females, that the more athletic may be more often severely affected by Gardasil.

    • Denmark didn’t show anything – thoroughly debunked by real science and European scientific agencies. This kid had myocarditis unrelated to Gardasil. Did you not actually read this article?

      • Graceds

        I read it, it lacked substance.

        • Ah, someone with a third grade education is going to make that inane comment. Well good for you.

          • Graceds

            The only point that you made was that the coroners report listed myocarditis.

            • Which was written by someone 5000X better trained than some quack, paid by the antivaccine movement, in Connecticut who did not observe the body directly.

              Myocarditis is the ONLY diagnosis that has been established.

              Please learn to read, or I’ll troll you all day long. I’ve got the time.

            • Chris Preston

              Actually, that was in the autopsy report prepared by the Chief Medical Examiner of Los Angeles County. Someone who would be better placed to assess evidence of myocardial damage than Sin Hang Lee. Lee was heavily criticised over his evidence at the inquest into the death of Jasmine Renata

            • Graceds

              I found this interesting.
              “Dr Lee claims that these adjuvant-DNA complexes would be phagocytised (taken up) by tissue macrophages after injection and that these DNA fragments, protected from degradation within the cell, may behave as long acting stimulators to activate the production of inflammatory products such as tumour necrosis factor(TNF). He then goes on to point out that TNF is a known myocardial depressant capable of causing hypotension and lethal shock in animals and humans as well as the symptoms reported by girls who received Gardasil.”
              The author refuting says it’s unproven, but there is also concern about macrophagic myofascitis and ASIA, so his theory isn’t in a totally unsupported position.

            • Mike Stevens

              That’s like saying:
              “Dr Lee claims that dogs howl at the moon when it is full to cure themselves of fleas, and they may scratch excessively because they have parasites complexed with moonbeams in the skin”, and then saying that because there is concern some animals have ectoparasites means that “Lee’s theory isn’t in a totally unsupported position”

            • Graceds

              I’ll be interested to see Dr Lee’s findings in this case.

            • Mike Stevens

              Why, when you clearly cannot understand the science involved, let alone his brand of pseudoscience?

            • Graceds

              He has a unique perspective on this issue.
              I’ll wait for his findings.

            • Mike Stevens

              Most people with a unique perspective have the wrong perspective.
              …waits for grace to troll us with the “Galileo gambit”

            • Graceds

              It’s wait and see for me.
              I don’t know what he’ll find.

            • properdoctor

              Why, you have already played the ‘all vaccines are safe’ gambit.

            • Mike Stevens

              “you have already played the ‘all vaccines are safe’ gambit”
              When? Can you link to my comment, please?
              I know of no vaccine supporter who has ever said that.

            • properdoctor

              Because Mikey is a vaccine believer he has already prejudged the outcome. Even if it shows that vaccine did it, Mike is a denier and he will howl and wail…………..

            • There’s no need for belief. That’s the great thing about science; it doesn’t give a fuck whether you believe it or not. And NdGT stole that saying from me 😉

            • properdoctor

              You believe that peer review is ‘evidence’, well it isn’t. By definition is is the result of ‘review’ by peers, it is a contrived reality fallacy

            • Boris Ogon

              Just opened the shop doors, eh, Philip?

            • Katia

              suz, is this you? Or is it sabelmouse? Go after this poster, mod. I sense a sock-puppet.

            • It can’t be suz. I don’t think she could write so many words in a row without using at least some html tags!

            • CharlieB1972

              It’s not self-pitying enough, either.

            • Zogby

              Should we get a pool going?

              $10 sez that’s Diddly Doo / ladycum / medicalpeereview

            • Chris Preston
            • Zogby

              Aww, you beat me to it, Chris.

            • Boris Ogon

              Yah, me too.

            • Zogby


              There goes the pool.

            • properdoctor

              Just because more and more people are seeing this site as a ‘chocolate teapot fact generator’ doesn’t mean they are all clones. Maybe if you think you are keeping your head and everyone else is not, you have misunderstood the situation. Have a little think about it and get back. Bringing the profession into disrepute is not helping anyone.

            • Unique perspective? Is that a euphemism for “full if shit?” Lol! I’m going to use that at some point today. Thanks!

            • properdoctor

              Problem is with these vaccine belief fallacists is that they can’t engage in any discussion about the fallacy of vaccination. It is like telling Catholics that the pope is a figment

            • Chris Preston

              Dr Lee claims that these adjuvant-DNA complexes would be phagocytised (taken up) by tissue macrophages after injection and that these DNA fragments, protected from degradation within the cell, may behave as long acting stimulators to activate the production of inflammatory products such as tumour necrosis factor(TNF).

              There is simply no evidence to support these claims. They are motivated speculation.

              The author refuting says it’s unproven, but there is also concern about macrophagic myofascitis and ASIA, so his theory isn’t in a totally unsupported position.

              Given ASIA as a syndrome is not well supported by evidence and seems to be Shoenfeld’s Theory of Everything, the fact that one bit of speculation might intersect with another bit of speculation does not make a hill of beans.

            • properdoctor

              No modern physiology text book has any references to any of the claims for physiology and the claims of body functions

            • Boris Ogon

              No modern physiology text book has any references to any of the claims for physiology and the claims of body functions

              Ignoring the fact that this is word salad, Philip Hills, it might help if you could specify which of these is most insightful.

            • properdoctor

              What is a Philip Hills salad?

            • You found that interesting, did you? Please explain to me how anything phagocytised by macrophage are “protected” from degradation? You do realize that “protecting from degradation” is not on the top of a macrophage’s priority list, right? Do you understand how the immune system works, or are you just regurgitating copy/paste nonsense from other ignorant sources? Or, are you willing to explain a plausible mechanism by which this could occur?

              Science is funny like that; you’re not allowed to just make shit up.

            • Katia

              She’s just copy/pasting; she has no idea what she’s saying. Forgive her her ignorance! (LOL!)

            • I saw that, and I was wondering WTF? Because macrophages generally have one purpose in life and that’s to destroy shit.

            • Some people think if they just use technical terms to try to explain something *they* don’t understand, nobody will question it. It’s the foundation of pseudoscience. I guess in Graced’s case, Lee was right. I’m sure she’ll be back with an explanation really soon. Lol

            • Katia

              And certainly better placed to assess evidence of anything than Graceds!

            • Thank you for actually reading the article, as opposed to some others.

        • Katia

          You mean you, a woo-pitcher with zero science credentials, disagree.

    • “The teenager had been training for the high school football team from four to five hours a day for the two months prior to his death without incident.”

      This was true until his myocardial infarction. That’s how that works. The evidence of prior scarring on his myocardial was evidence of prior infarction, possibly as a result of his intense training combined with underlying infecting. I did not read the ME report, but I’m confident that injecting scary HPV rDNA had nothing to do with anything. Do you know what happens to naked, cell-free DNA in the bloodstream? Yeah, I didn’t think so. Apparently, either does Lee.

    • Katia

      That whole bit was debunked, not by the big, bad CDC but by the European Medicines Agency:
      “The European Medicines Agency’s Pharmacovigilance Risk Assessment Committee (PRAC)
      has completed a detailed scientific review of the evidence surrounding
      reports of two syndromes, complex regional pain syndrome (CRPS) and
      postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS) in young women given
      human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccines. These vaccines are given to protect
      them from cervical cancer and other HPV-related cancers and
      pre-cancerous conditions. This review concluded that the evidence does
      not support a causal link between the vaccines (Cervarix,
      Gardasil/Silgard and Gardasil-9) and development of CRPS or POTS.
      Therefore, there is no reason to change the way the vaccines are used or
      amend the current product information.”

      Happy Thanksgiving, Gracie!

      • Graceds

        Happy thanksgiving to you, Katia.

  • Graceds

    Regarding the Milford Borrelia DNA test, a PCR test would be much more useful than an antibody test, especially in an emergency setting.
    Also, Dr Lee has called for independent testing of current Lyme tests, including his own, which gives him points for scientific integrity and a desire to validate the science.
    One should also keep in mind that Milford is in Connecticut, an area known to be endemic for Lyme.

    • Lyme disease is irrelevant to this article. Completely. Whether he has integrity or not, and he really doesn’t by lying about Gardasil, is irrelevant. All that matters is his science is full of shit.

      • Graceds

        As I said, you found it pertinent to your article.

  • Graceds

    Re your “black hole of Chronic Lyme” comment, I refer you to the research of Dr Kim Lewis at Northeastern, who has researched both MRSA and Lyme, focusing on persister cells.
    Also this recent review of this subject

    • Graceds
      • Primary murine research has NO relevance to real clinical science. Call me when there’s a randomized double-blind clinical trial that shows anything. This is just cherry picking shitty research. It has no value to anyone with scientific skills.

        • Graceds

          I gather that’s not you.

        • Graceds

          You dismissed the UC Davis study, it may have implications for Vaccine development.

          • Chris Preston

            You dismissed the UC Davis study, it may have implications for Vaccine development.

            It has nothing to do with how vaccines work.

            It is about Borrelia burgdorferi spirochetes evading the immune response by residing in lymph nodes in mice. It remains to be determined what relevance this research will have, if any, for humans.

    • Chronic Lyme Disease does not exist despite your wonderful ability to cherry pick. And it has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with this article. Get off of it.

      • Graceds

        You brought it up in your article.

        • Irrelevant. Read the fucking title of the article ignorant fool.

          • Graceds

            You brought up his PCR test for Lyme which probably saved some lives.

            • I do not believe that death is a known prognosis for Lyme disease. He saved no one, as far as I know. But again, this isn’t about Lyme disease. Move it along.

    • Chris Preston

      The International Journal of General Medicine is basically a place where people can publish vanity pieces. The whole thesis of Keith Berndtson that massive doses of antibiotics can cure “chroninc lyme” has not been demonstrated in any clinical trial.

      So basically, this review is someone trumpeting an unproven treatment that they offer through their medical practice. Strangely the author declares no competing interests.

      • Graceds

        Dr Kim Lewis research was funded by NIH and Bill Gates.

        • Chris Preston

          You seem to have difficulty reading.

          The work of Kim Lewis would suggest that Keith Berndtson’s treatments are useless.

          • Graceds

            He found persister cells in Lyme, as he did in MRSA.
            This was in the preliminary findings in 2014 presented at the American Society of Microbiology.
            If you read the subsequent work, it pointed to the need for testing of some possible treatment avenues, including pulsing of an antibiotic, which worked against persister cells in “test tube”. Some drs do use pulsing in treatment.
            “This is the first time, we think, that pulse-​​dosing has been published as a method for eradicating the population of a pathogen with antibiotics that don’t kill dormant cells,” Lewis said in a statement. “The trick to doing this is to allow the dormant cells to wake up. This gives you an idea that you could, in principle, establish a similar regiment for treating patients for this and other chronic diseases.”
            I believe he is currently working on a new antibiotic, but not specifically for Borrelia.
            His work is interesting.

            the paradox of Chronic infection

  • properdoctor

    The biggest question your article poses is ‘why would anyone want to have the vaccine in the first place?’

    • Katia

      To prevent cancer, silly! Just what kind of doctor are you?

      • Chris Preston

        To prevent cancer, silly! Just what kind of doctor are you?

        Philip Hills of the Hope Osteopathic Clinic. So not a proper doctor at all.

        • To be fair, osteopaths are mostly physicians. They can be licensed as physicians. They can properly prescribe medications as physicians.

          But obviously Phillip Hills flunked out of science based medicine.

          • Chris Preston

            Philip Hills is from the UK, not the US. Osteopathy training in the UK does not resemble a medical degree that most people would recognise.

            • Katia


            • You are correct. I’ve got to quit being so American-centric. I think that only in the USA are osteopaths trained to be physicians.

              There used to be a belief that those who got into osteopathic school were unable to get into a medical school. But over the past couple of decades, we just don’t have enough physicians graduating from medical schools, so Osteopathy school is just as difficult and just as demanding. They need to have clinical training in school, residencies and fellows.

              I have a physician who is a DO. She is extremely well trained, and we have good conversations about ridiculous pseudoscience being pushed in medicine these days.

          • Katia

            My guess would be not working in pediatrics, family practice, gyn, ENT or infectious disease, either.

          • Boris Ogon

            To be fair, osteopaths are mostly physicians.

            Phildo is a UK osteopath, not a D.O., which is equivalent to an M.D. in the US.

            [Edit.—I see that all of this has been covered. Carry on.]

      • properdoctor

        We all know that the fallacious claims made by Giardisil developers have no basis in fact. I am surprised that a site like this that is claiming to be skeptical is accepting such falseness.

    • Is this a trick question? What’s a proper doctor? Apparently not one who sees value in preventing cervical cancer. Odd.

      • properdoctor

        Oh, not the ‘giardisil prevents cancer fallacy’. How predictable

        • Well yeah, except for the fallacy part. But I’d be happy to look over any peer reviewed publications you supply that show otherwise.

          Doctor, huh? Extremely doubtful, unless you have am advanced degree in art history or some other non-scientific field.

          • properdoctor

            Geez. Not the ‘peer reviewed is evidence’ fallacy. Is that all you have?

        • Hmmm, a 26-comment sock puppet with private posting history. Shocking. I love the smell of roasting troll on the holidays.

  • Kathy

    Well, that is all very interesting. I will be interested to see where the courts go with this.

    • Well, technically, it’s not a court per se. It’s the Special Masters, who aren’t judges, but specialized administrative law appointees, who may or may not be attorneys, and who decides these vaccine-related cases. There are different rules than one might find in regular courts.

      • Kathy

        Yes, well, my point still stands that I will be interested in seeing where this goes.

        • My guess? Since it’s not a table injury, they’ll have to actually prove it with science. There’s just no evidence on their side.