Why we vaccinate–preventing unvaccinated children from getting sick

love-immunize-protectThis is a new guest post by Karen Ernst, who is the parent-leader of Voices for Vaccines, a parent-led organization that supports and advocates for on-time vaccination and the reduction of vaccine-preventable disease. Karen is the mother of three boys and the wife of a military officer, living in Minnesota. 

Unvaccinated children do not deserve to get sick.

Of any statement made by anyone discussing immunization, that one seems like it should be the least provocative. Yet, for the umpteenth time this week, I’ve read on an antivaccine blog that pro-vaccine advocates claim vaccine hesitant parents don’t love their children or should have their children removed from their home.

Let’s take a moment for a reality check. Most parents do vaccinate their children. In fact, less than 1% of all school children in the USA are completely unvaccinated. While within this overwhelming majority there are bound to be a few jerks who will make callous statements about children and their parents, most of us want to protect all the children around us.

We talk quite a bit about protecting immunocompromised children from vaccine preventable disease. We want to make sure Benjamin, who had a heart transplant and is unable to receive any live vaccines, is kept far away from measles and chickenpox. We want to make sure that Sonia’s children, who were born with Primary immunodeficiency, live in a community as free from disease as possible. Community immunity is precious to us, not just because it provides an added layer of protection for our vaccinated children, but also because it provides protection for our neighbors’ children.

But it also protects that fully unvaccinated child, who has no choice in the matter. That unvaccinated child did not ask to be left vulnerable to disease, and that unvaccinated child does not deserve to get sick. So we are doing what we can, and our first act of advocacy is to vaccinate our own children.

If you are a vaccine hesitant (or fully anti-vaccine) parent, know that we are doing what we know is in the best interest of our children, the community, and your children. We do not want your beliefs about health and vaccines challenged by a bout with preventable illness. We do not want your children to suffer. We do want you to understand that vaccines are not about beliefs–they are about science, and the science is so overwhelmingly on the side of immunization, that it’s quite impossible to list here all the evidence showing that vaccines are safe and save lives. But since the science hasn’t convinced you, we are doing what we can to shield your children.

right-to-health-vaccine

Too often, the efforts of the pro-vaccine parent are undermined by the success of immunization. How often do we hear an anti-vaccine activist claim that the polio vaccine is unnecessary because polio is gone (it’s not) or that measles is rare (because of vaccines), though it may be returning? How often do we witness the collective whitewashing of history when it comes to the ravages of diseases many of us want to keep in the past?

When antivaccine activists claims that we are pharma shills or that vaccines cause all manner of impossible side effects or that illness is actually good, we might feel like Daenerys Targaryen and wish to rain down all manner of doom upon them. No doubt, the magical thinking and chutzpah of those most ardent refusers drives us to the edge of reason and manners. But when we think of their children, children who grow up to be people like Amy Parker, it’s only natural that our compulsion to protect kicks in.

At the end of the day, vaccine hesitant parents are doing their best with the information they have. They are acting out of love and their own desire to give their children the best. When my own parents put me to sleep on my belly as an infant or gave me aspirin as a child, they were doing the same thing. My parents didn’t have access to the information about the value of back sleeping or the dangers of giving aspirin to children because that information didn’t exist.

The information showing the value of vaccines does exist. Vaccine hesitant parents aren’t acting on this information because the cacophony of very loud, very mobilized antivaccine advocates drowns out the good information. And maybe they are being convinced by this anti-vaccine brigade that pro-vaccine advocates are evil, ill-wishing beasts who want to depopulate the planet.

But that’s not who we are. We want to challenge their beliefs with our facts, not with their misfortune. We want their children to be protected by the herd and to grow up to be healthy people who just might recognize that they were lucky to live at a time when science and society gave them the best odds possible. We wish all children good health and long lives.

The Original Skeptical Raptor
Chief Executive Officer at SkepticalRaptor
Lifetime lover of science, especially biomedical research. Spent years in academics, business development, research, and traveling the world shilling for Big Pharma. I love sports, mostly college basketball and football, hockey, and baseball. I enjoy great food and intelligent conversation. And a delicious morning coffee!

118 Replies to “Why we vaccinate–preventing unvaccinated children from getting sick”

  1. This is a draft of something I intend to present to my anti-fraud and anti-corruption contacts around the globe. None of you have proven anything here to be incorrect yet. Here is another chance to make any meaningful argument:

    “The pro-vaccine and anti-vaccine debate is one of
    the hottest topics on earth at the moment. I think what gets lost in this all-or-nothing kind of debate is that we really should be looking at this incrementally. Each vaccine needs to prove itself via an accurate and complete cost/benefit analysis. One key cost that is often left out or poorly calculated in any analysis is the lost time/lost productivity for parents who must stay home from work with a child who has a reaction to a vaccine. In most nations and locales, a child with a
    low grade fever is not allowed in a day care setting nor a school. If the child does not have a grandparent, family friend, or normal stay at home parent to be at home, a parent has to take an unplanned “sick day.”
    These unplanned sick days carry a high cost in terms of lost
    productivity. While there is the existence of this database to report such “minor” reactions (even a fever can indicate brain swelling, hardly a minor reaction), https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index, the reporting is voluntary and the efforts to follow-up on the effects on children is not at all significant.

    A more extensive Vaccine Safety Datalink is produced, http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/activities/vsd.html. However this database is NOT fully accessible and transparent per qualifiers from that page “How Can I Access VSD Data? Interested researchers are able to access VSD data and data from published VSD studies through public use datasets, the VSD data sharing program, and collaboration with current VSD investigators.”

    Also I have been told that the limited number of
    “adverse events” that must be reported per table 2 of this page: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt21-surv-adverse-events.html
    are only “mandated” for reporting via an honor system. There is no enforcement structure in place to see that these events are actually reported.

    We have many of the classical elements of corruption in place: Incomplete data on which to base decisions. Lack of transparency. Rules with weak enforcement.

    Without taking sides on the medical pro-con arguments that are being made, anti-fraud and anti-corruption advocates around the globe should take a stand to see that there is more transparency, less conflict-of-interest, more complete understanding of BOTH sides of the cost/benefit equation, and better enforcement of mandates put upon medical professionals.

    A fear based marketing strategy can lead us into a “hyper-vaccinating” scenario to where we are incurring more costs and risk than the benefits and the rewards.
    It is my opinion, and this is only an opinion, that this train has
    already left the station in the United States.”

    1. As opposed to an unplanned hospital stay. With the most recent outbreak of measles these odds were 1:10. Oh yeah, and measles is so highly infectious not vaccinating for it would result in a pandemic. And wild type measles results in sick days too, and sick kids, and bringing measles to work which results in more sick days. Similar situation to pertussis.

      As already cited twice already you MIGHT have a point with polio. Roughly 95% of children were immune and most of those just had a sore throat. But fortunately parents in the 1950s and 1960s didn’t look at it like that, nor do I think they would trade fewer sick days for fucking polio. It might be only serious in .1% of infections, but serious is seriously serious including death opposed to the vaccine at ~.0013% injections resulting in serious adverse reactions which don’t include neurological damage, disfigurement, nor lifetime paralysis including the lungs. And you can’t really call that one a conspiracy because parents begged for a vaccine literally donating dimes (March of Dimes) for research. So hardly a conspiracy.

  2. This is the kind of stuff I am involved with in my regular job: http://www.slideshare.net/RichPurtell/corruption-in-construction-31439678

    The patterns for corruption are always the same:
    A small number of deviants are in a profession, with near zero integrity and a whole lot of greed.
    Weak regulations and even weaker enforcement of those regulations.
    A large number of apathetic or sheepish followers.
    A small number of reformers who are trying to fix the mess , and they are frequently attacked by the status quo.

    There is some conflict of interest and illegitimacy within the anti vax movement. But the hyper vax movement is not pure of interest either, I assure you.

    1. There is no hypervax movement. How to go with your assertion there totally is corruption with vaccines. For example in MMR II one component was cited as being 95% effective when in reality it was 90% effective. This got Merck a government contract. The fib was so slight it wasn’t noticed. Whistle blowers are accountable for us knowing about it.

      While unethical it’s HARDLY is equal to your example since there is ultimately public oversight on vaccines. If MMR was not effective against let’s say measles measles would still be endemic to America. It’s not. Same deal with polio, small pox, even pertussis which is among the least effective vaccines. The products ultimately work. And you’re patently delusional since we’re not talking about major money makers for big pharma. We’re only talking about 2.4% of their gross revenue with the bulk of that seasonal vaccines and HPV. Before you cry conspiracy HPV vaccines are EXCEPTIONALLY costly to produce so revenue doesn’t exactly equal profit. Most of the vaccines you’re discussing fall into the 1% class like the oral polio vaccine at 1 billion doses per year which apparently doesn’t even scratch the surface as it only costs pennies a dose ~14c or so.

      This with all due respect is appeal to a conspiracy. Corruption exists so vaccines must be part of this corruption.

  3. Here is a study showing under reporting rates are over 90%. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16689555/

    Also from what I can gather, the “mandate” to report for the small number of side effects for which there is a mandate, is indeed a paper tiger rule. No doctor has had their license revoked in the almost 30 years since the mandate. Sounds a lot like NYS gml 103-e, a reality I deal with in construction. Another paper tiger rule with no history for anyone being punished.

    1. /purpose of this review was to estimate the extent of under-reporting of adverse drug reactions (ADRs) /

      You have a reading disorder. This is abstract covers DRUGS, not vaccines. That’s what adverse DRUG reactions (ADR) means, fucking drugs. The mandate to report VACCINE adverse reactions doesn’t apply to drugs.

      Vaccines are NOT drugs dumbass. Also did you read the full text or just the abstract. The funny thing about doing research is you need grant money, and to get the grant money you need to write what your paper is about. Because of this sometimes the abstract gets written BEFORE the paper and can differ wildly from the paper.

      You already conceded that serious adverse reactions are more likely to be reported.

    1. “See table 2.”

      Well see table 3.

      For paralysis with the OPV vaccine the reporting rate appears to be 68%. For a simple rash with MMR that’s less than 1%. For someone with a 130+ IQ you’re amazingly absent minded. What you just cited backs up EXACTLY what we’re saying.

      And see right here stupid fuck

      /Underreporting can affect the ability of VAERS to detect very rare events, although clinically serious events are more likely to be reported than non-serious events./

      Golly look at that dumb ass.

      “For any other response, no mandate to report.”

      /As described above, healthcare providers are mandated by law to report certain AE after vaccination, and they are encouraged to report any clinically significant event occurring after vaccination, even if they are not certain the event is causally related to a vaccine(s)./

      You sir are a foofoo head.

  4. Many of you have commented that VAERS is a mandatory reporting program. Please look at this page: https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index

    Please read this, taken from that web page:

    When reviewing data from VAERS, please keep in mind the following limitations:

    VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning that reports about adverse events are not automatically collected, but require a report to be filed to VAERS. VAERS reports can be submitted voluntarily by anyone, including healthcare providers, patients, or family members. Reports vary in quality and completeness. They often lack details and sometimes can have information that contains errors.

    “Underreporting” is one of the main limitations of passive surveillance systems, including VAERS. The term, underreporting refers to the fact that VAERS receives reports for only a small fraction of actual adverse events. The degree of underreporting varies widely. As an example, a great many of the millions of vaccinations administered each year by injection cause soreness, but relatively few of these episodes lead to a VAERS report. Physicians and patients understand that minor side effects of vaccinations often include this kind of discomfort, as well as low fevers. On the other hand, more serious and unexpected medical events are probably more likely to be reported than minor ones, especially when they occur soon after vaccination, even if they may be coincidental and related to other causes.

    A report to VAERS generally does not prove that the identified vaccine(s) caused the adverse event described. It only confirms that the reported event occurred sometime after vaccine was given. No proof that the event was caused by the vaccine is required in order for VAERS to accept the report. VAERS accepts all reports without judging whether the event was caused by the vaccine.

    So you can see the inaccuracy of this program. Reporting is voluntary. Health care professionals are very busy. Angry parents may report events that are in no way connected to a vaccine. Wouldn’t it make more sense to get the health care professionals more involved? A good reporting program can be costly. Maybe 3-6 months “swaths” of time where certain vaccines are targeted for more thorough analysis would be appropriate.
    But stop thinking that health care professionals are mandated to report to this database. They most certainly are not.

      1. Simple. Vaccines- mandated in most states. CDC reporting of outbreaks- mandated. Media – all over said outbreaks. Vaccine adverse events – voluntary, scattered reporting and questionable accuracy. To quote faux news, not “fair and balanced” analytics by any means.

        1. A. Vaccines are not mandated. Most states have school immunization requirements, meaning that if you want to send a child to public school you need to immunize, get an exemption or homeschool.

          B. As explained several time, adverse event reporting is mandatory. And we have substantial evidence of over reporting.

          C. I’m not sure why you think the media should not report on outbreaks.

          1. Only a handful of very specific side effects have mandates for reporting. Find that cdc table 2 post I put on here. It’s kind of silly to think everything is reported. The only way that could happen is to have 24 hour observation of a child for a whole week after every shot.

            1. Many people here have repeatedly said that ALL events must be reported. Clearly that is a big exaggeration. The vaers site says the word “under reporting” not me. Help me answer this question: Has there ever been a doctor anywhere in the USA who has been reprimanded for NOT reporting a “mandated reporting event”? I’ve been digging around and it sounds like this mandate is an example of a “paper tiger” rule with virtually no enforcement. The cdc table 2 lists what 4 or 5 specific reactions that must be reported?

            2. Excuse me Purtell. I’ve been following your remarks and you are the commenter who is making all those mistakes about minor vaccine reactions which are not reportable-vs-Serious Adverse Events.

              Ask you sister-in-law the doctor, about those doctors who out-of-compliance for reporting Serious Adverse Events.

              Suck it up…you’ve been busted for being a JAQing off troll.

              Cripes, I despise health care professionals wannabes and poseurs.

            3. This table is identical to the cdc table 2 that I posted yesterday.

      2. Who is “We”? My understanding is that while the VSD is paid for by taxpayers, this is not a fully accessible and “transparent” database.
        Per this VSD page:

        http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/activities/vsd.html

        “How Can I Access VSD Data?

        Interested researchers are able to access VSD data and data from published VSD studies through public use datasets, the VSD data sharing program, and collaboration with current VSD investigators.

        1. “We” is the United States. If you search through PubMed, you will find VSD studies. You cannot spelunk VSD the way you do VAERS, but such use of either is a misuse (or a misunderstanding) of how they function.

          1. Good lord the concepts on this site are just out in left field. How can studies be critiqued if the raw data on which those studies are based is not available? “Public use dataset” is an open admission that the entire dataset is not open to the public. Yet another “the government is always right, no need to question them” viewpoint.

  5. A lot of crazy comments from last night:
    1- You all have reframed my position. Try reading what I really said. I’m talking about evaluating the cost/benefit of each vaccine, not about a zero vaccine approach. If you factor in lost time from work to haul your child to the doctor for all of these “well child visits”, each treatment (granted they are combined) costs around $200 to $300. Use the same math for the lost time due to illness; that’s only fair. As it now stands the vaccine program’s true cost is in the range of of billions of dollars per year for the USA. I have to wonder that half of those vaccines result in saving maybe a handful of lives. So hundreds of millions of dollars per life saved? Sorry, an actuary would say that is bad investing. Spend all this money on vaccines, we don’t have the money for other life saving things. I think 2 MMR shots and maybe a couple others make sense, but many states have gone way beyond that.
    2- VAERS is mostly patient reported. Health care professionals have told me that they are so darn busy that if something isn’t mandated, they don’t do it. Someone said there was a reporting mandate by doctors. I believe that to be incorrect. Given how hard it is to prove causality for vaccine damages, it seems that to get any kind of accuracy, the health care professionals should lead the charge, not patients.
    3- My ex-marine comment was to say that the internet exposing all kinds of foul mouthed language from people that they would never use in a face to face confrontation. I was in the reserves, “weekend warrior” 81-85. Truck driver. I did boot camp back mixed in with active duty Marines, same as everyone else. Many reservists were mobilized for the Iraq war, but I was out prior to that.
    4- Please have a look at the mandate table for New York State. See how many there are when you add in the many booster shots? Fifty plus? You betcha.
    5- Combined effect of all these vaccines possibly causing an increase in auto-immune illnesses? Who knows. Speculation. But let’s be honest that while medicine has advanced a lot in the last 100 years, there is still much we don’t know. It concerns me that hyper immunizing children may bite them later in life with serious diseases such as MS and arthritis.
    Please stop trying to relabel my position. My kids (4 of them) all have had vaccines. But my youngest two are below the state mandate, because I think the state mandate has become excessive. We had to get an exemption form for a reduced approach.
    I’m also unique because of having a wide range of kids ages 23, 21, 5, and 3. I had good conversations with my doctor concerning vaccines with my older kids, especially about the DPT vaccine which was quite risky (reformulated to DTaP, there is medicine in continuous improvement), but now that there are mandates, there is disinterest by the doctors in having any kind of risk/reward discussion with a parent. That trend disturbs me.
    No I don’t see conspiracy theories in everything, again a reframing of my position to the extreme that you did. But “the government is always right” is not a wise strategy either.

    1. I have to take exception to a lot of what you have written. Before I begin, though, I need to mention that my husband has spent his adult life in some form of military and spent 2 years in Iraq while we were married and had children, so I know of sacrifice and I know of doing something for the good of others. Bear this in mind. I also have a wide range of children–from adulthood to primary grades. Lastly, bear in mind that my whole point was that I do not wish you or your children ill. I do everything I can to protect all of you.

      1. It is far less expensive to dispense a vaccine than to pay for treating a vaccine-preventable illness. This is why insurance companies spent money encouraging immunization. It’s also more costly to test for potential VPDs–and unvaccinated children have to endure more testing when they present with certain symptoms because they are at such higher risk for so many different infections and illnesses. Immunization, like most preventative care, lowers the cost of healthcare.

      2. Doctors do report to VAERS. If you have proof that they do not, you should post it. A more reliable measure of post-marketing reporting is the Vaccines Safety Datalink. The VSD consistently shows that vaccines are safe.

      3. Your ex-marine comment was meant to intimidate and threaten–ironic on a post about hoping for the best for your children. And my husband has never used his status as a military man to intimidate a civilian–especially on the internet. If your argument had strength, you would have relied on that. You should apologize for using your military service in an attempt to silence someone on the internet.

      4. 49, 50, so what? That’s 14 different diseases by the age of 6. Diseases that used to kill and maim children. How many doses of an antibiotic would it take to cure pneumonia? How many doses of various drugs did the 48,000 children hospitalized each year with measles (before the vaccine) receive? Vaccines have prevented 100 million cases of 7 different VPDs since 1924. How many doses of anti-pyretics, antibiotics, anti-virals, etc. were also prevented from being used? Should we count those up?

      5. Speculating about something you don’t know (like vaccines causing autoimmune diseases) is dangerous. It’s a way of raising doubt in the absence of fact.

      Fortunately, someone does know. Research has been done and has shown that vaccines *do not* cause autoimmune diseases.

      Since I also parent a wide range of children, I’ll share my perspective. Doctors understand the risk-benefit ratio of vaccines better than ever and are better equipped to explain it to parents with honest questions.

      I’d encourage you to take a better look at the science behind vaccines.

    2. (1) Tell this to someone who had polio. The “true” cost is hard to calculate since vaccines are often distributed by volunteers. You don’t “need” a doctor. Just look at your supermarket or health department. The vaccines themselves are in the ballpark of $1 Billion per year world wide and in more recent years ~$2.4 Billion with HPV and influenza vaccines in terms of revenue. They facilitate higher population densities by reducing the risk of infectious disease and increasing the odds of viable offspring and increasing the years one can be a productive worker.

      (2) “Given how hard it is to prove causality for vaccine damages”
      Which is rather why the first thing that is done is to correlate injury with vaccines.

      (3) You threatened to blast someone. There’s really no excuse. And it’s kind of pathetic to try to intimate others by saying you were a marine when in reality you were a weekend warrior.

      (4) I only count 32 on the CDC cite, as in 32 shots not including influenza. And you’re ignoring the antigen levels are a good deal lower then they were when you were younger.

      https://www.health.ny.gov/publications/2378.pdf

      (5) “Combined effect of all these vaccines” rather than the combined effect of all these diseases? Even a so called mild disease like measles contributed to encephalitis with odds of brain damage, blindness, and deafness. While most people were immune to polio, those which were not numbered in the ballpark of 10,000/year. Among these included paralysis including lung paralysis, disfigurement, neurological disorders, and in some cases the effect was permanent. You’ll find a common pattern, a given vaccine presents at least a 1000x lower risk of anything serious happening, and serious is actually a good deal less serious.

      “especially about the DPT vaccine which was quite risky”

      Not really. There were concerns about DPwT sure but those concerns were largely unfounded thanks to research in nations in Japan who delayed DPT til 2 years and found no decrease in the rate of SIDS and found a sharp increase in the rate of pertussis.

      The oral polio vaccine was among the more risky vaccines but represented a huge net win, roughly 10,000 cases to less than 10 caused by the vaccine, and in those cases no long term damage unlike the wild type virus.

    3. The cost/benefit analysis of each vaccine IS calculated before it’s introduced to the schedule.

      If you don’t think that’s the case – then why isn’t the Meningitis B vaccine already on the schedule in the US, when it’s been approved abroad? (It’s currently available for emergency outbreaks).

      VAERS is reported by both physicians and patients – you can tell which entries are done by qualified personnel, because they involve the LOT # of the vaccine, the DATE given, and other pertinent information that most patient reports do not contain.

      Regarding 50 vaccines on the schedule – Sorry, but no. Many vaccines are combination vaccines, which reduces the number of shots. Even counting a yearly flu shot you don’t reach 50.

      You’re also not unique having a wide range of kids. Get over yourself.

    4. I don’t usually respond to violent, narcissistic jerks like you, but your lack of education (Binghamtom University…oh yeah, a former starter college for Syracuse University, a real school) is obvious. You must have flunked math.

      You completely overrate, without a tiny bit of evidence, the risk. And you completely ignore the benefit, as if these diseases are nothing. And your ignorance that somehow you are smarter than New York’s Department of health is the epitome of cognitive bias.

      You are a violent liar. That you don’t know anything about science or math is hysterical. You threaten to murder me because you have nothing but hate and violence as the support to your lies and ignorance.

      My cousin was an Marine. And a New York State Trooper. He’d probably have a long conversation with you, but sadly, he was killed in an ambush in one of our wars. He’s a real hero. You are most certainly not.

      One more thing. I go to upstate NY quite often. You want to murder me when I’m there? I’ll leave all my details for you coward.

      1. Good lord you are just insane, and very wrong.
        IQ test in 7th grade: 130+, put in gifted program
        Highest math and science grades in my class in high school.
        3.72 GPA Penn State
        3.92 GPA BU, top of mechanical engineering class (don’t appreciate your insulting my college).
        Recent Wonderlink exam for a job interview. Finished it. Interviewer said he never saw anyone finish. Scored 43, average person gets around a 25. Again correlates to a gifted to borderline genius IQ.
        So all of my life I have demonstrated exceptional ability in math and science among my peers.
        You can’t be any more wrong about my math skills.
        Find me some studies that show 3 digit costs for vaccinations. These studies showing $10 and $20 costs per shot are ridiculous. In the USA with 2 income families, a parent has to take time off work, pick their kid up from day care or school, drive to the doctor, get the shot, then reverse the process. Then there is the reality that many of these “well child visits” are oriented around the shot, so you are there for that purpose, so the doctor’s fee counts, as well as the insurance companies 20% profit margin (I assume you are pro insurance?).
        When I said “blast” that was the wrong word because I have no guns, I meant if you talked to me face-to-face the way you write, I would likely knock you on your keester. I think many people wouldn’t tolerate the awful, foul mouthed language that constantly streams around on the internet. Does that make me violent because I wouldn’t tolerate the level of verbal abuse that you deem reasonable? Your call. But walk around and talk the way you write for a few weeks, and see how that works out for you. Someone would take enough offense to put you in your place.
        Yes I was only a weekend warrior in the Marines. And many of you all have to insult me about that also. Many reservists served in Iraq. I went to the same boot camp as everyone else. Had to pass the same rifle qualifications and PFT tests as active duty personnel. I made it to E-5 rank in only 3 years, so the Marines certainly saw leadership potential and respected me. I didn’t go ROTC because I wanted to get into the solar business out of college and didn’t want to serve the mandatory 2 years of active duty. By the way, I maxed the score on the GT (General Technical) test to become an officer.
        Your strategy has been to deflect and edit my comments into something other than what I said, launch personal insults at my knowledge, education, military experience, etc. Completely unprofessional and completely off point are most of your counter-arguments.

        1. “IQ test in 7th grade: 130+, put in gifted program”

          This is not exactly a credential. I really wouldn’t brag about a 130+ IQ. I know 100 is “average” (98 US) but we’re talking 1:33-1:135. Big deal.

          “Find me some studies that show 3 digit costs for vaccinations.”

          I’d have to dig those up to be honest. But there are plenty of overseas vaccination programs and as 501(c)3 the books are open.

          “In the USA with 2 income families, a parent has to take time off work, pick their kid up from day care or school, drive to the doctor, get the shot, then reverse the process.”

          See, you have a 130 IQ and you can’t figure out you can vaccinate at the pharmacy. Apalachin Pharmacy .8 miles from your house. They also have the health department and as a bonus in many states kids can vaccinate on their own so long as their 12. Not sure on NY since they’re trying to pass a bill to allow minors to get their HPV vaccine.

          You’re being a bit dishonest since your wife works from home.

          “I would likely knock you on your keester.”

          Okay physical assault and not murder.

          “Yes I was only a weekend warrior in the Marines. And many of you all have to insult me about that also. ”

          No, we’re insulting you because you claim to be a big shot ex-Marine who can blast us into next week. To most of us that means with a gun. We actually don’t give a shit, except to point out that you lied. You’re not actually a Marine which is apparent since apparently there is no such thing as an ex-Marine unless you were dishonorably discharged.

          And it’s interesting for someone who has such elite math skills you’ve never crunched the numbers yourself to establish a BENEFIT to RISK ratio.

          ” Does that make me violent because I wouldn’t tolerate the level of verbal abuse that you deem reasonable? ”

          Why yes, yes it does. It also makes you an amoral scumbag.

          1. You started out in my first reply here to Karen’s kind post with an abrasive remark, and you just kept piling on. You say anti vaxers hate their children. Highly obnoxious and wrong. They are being misled, misguided, but don’t tell them they hate their kids.

            You are a verbally violent person. Truth is I haven’t punched anyone in 30 years. I have broken up two fights, including one where a guy was being choked to death, and I had to testify for him in court. So again, your characterization of me is all wrong. “I’ll knock you into next week” is more of a parental, stop your nonsense comment. You really do come across as very rude and abrasive.

            1. “You say anti vaxers hate their children”

              No I don’t. Yet another lie in your list of lies.

              I generally say they fall into three classes.

              1) Ignorant – well meaning people who get persuaded by what sounds like a legit argument typically by (2) or (3)

              2) Conspiracy nuts – Those who believe there is a global conspiracy to push vaccines. As mild as profit motive, not limited to RFID in the injections. There not effective, they do more harm than good, diseases died out on their own are arguments used by the conspiracy nut class.

              3) Scam artists – those who use the fear of something to make their own products look good by extension. This would include many chiropractors, herbalists, and herbal farmers (Big alterna, big Herbal, big farmer). Often using arguments from (2).

              This doesn’t preclude or exclude someone loving their kids.

              “You are a verbally violent person.”

              Can we say psychological projection. You literally wanted to “blast” S.R. into next week. Whether you wanted him literally dead from a gun shot or hospitalized in a coma for 7 days due to blunt force trauma this makes you verbally violent. I’m just saying you’re an amoral scumbag who uses the threat of physical violence in order to intimidate others.

              “”I’ll knock you into next week” is more of a parental, stop your nonsense comment”

              More lies. It was BLAST you into next week suggesting a gun. Accepting your argument it now reads bludgeon you so hard you’ll be in a coma for 7 days because I’m a marine. It’s better than I’ll murder you, but not much.

              “You really do come across as very rude and abrasive.

              You literally threaten people. What the fuck is wrong with you.

            2. Neat trick to use an alter ego to post on your own site. That way it can look like you have a supporter.

            3. I have you my fucking phone number asshole. 206-337-6027 Give me a fucking call. You are so fucking delusional is Linda a sock? Is Dorit? Is Kelly?

              For someone who claims to have an “above average” IQ you are supremely dense without math skills. “A” supporter would be one, and I just spotted 3 without even trying?
              And what the flying fuck is up with this “i’m an ex-marine” bullshit then coming back and saying I’m verbally abusive. Are you this impressive heterosexual man or are you a pathetic little wimp? You made the threat of violence out of the gate, and to compound matters you claim you’d say this as a parent to a FUCKING CHILD. This makes you a sick fuck.

            4. You mean independent individuals who are smarter than you?

              Do you know that to a real Marine, like my uncle who actually fought as a US Marine, an ex-Marine is one who was court martialed or otherwise discharged less than honorably. I’d believe that you’re a lame-ass courtmartialed little coward.

            5. I’ve posted thousands of comments on many science blogs and have never stated that anti-vaccine parents hate their children.

        2. We’re bringing up grade and middle school testing now?

          When I was in 2nd grade, I had the vocabulary and comprehension of a sophomore in high school.

          While my classmates were reading, “Fun with Dick and Jane”, I was reading, “The Catcher in the Rye”

          Are we done bragging about our educational exploits yet?

        3. You reside in the Tomkins County New York Health Department catchment area, where vaccines are provided according to the CDC and New York State Recommended Childhood Vaccine Schedule:

          http://www.tompkins-co.org/health/dch/immunizations.htm

          Every Health Department in New York State uses VFC (Vaccines For Children) vaccines, exclusively. The VFC program provides vaccines free-of-charge to children whose parents are uninsured or whose parents are “under-insured”

          http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vfc/about/

          So, what does your education level, your IQ score and your weekend warrior Marine Corp status, have to do with your ability to argue against vaccinations?

          1. They said I lied about being in the Marines and I disproved that. Then they insulted me and the hundreds of thousands of other men and women who served in the military reserves. Skeptical opened the door by insulting my colleges and math skills, so I pointed out that I am far from being a “math flunky”. Jeepers go back and read all the personal insults and foul language directed at me.

            1. You were the one who first brought up your Marine Corps weekend warrior status…as some sort of credential for your ignorant-of-science stance on vaccines.

              Need I remind you that you threatened other posters here, with bodily harm?

              So…show us your stuff. Provide us with your sources for your outrageous statements about vaccines.

              Are you ashamed of your sources?

            2. I told him I would knock him on his ass if he talked to me face to face the way he writes on here. He threatened to call the police and take my kids away. I made a hypothetical comment. He posted personal information about me. Criticized my education, military record, choice of college. Plus used dozens of offensive words and personal insults. But yes somehow I am the bad guy. Riiiighhhht.

            3. None of your “credentials” are pertinent to this topic and you have threatened people on this blog.

            4. 1) I’m an ex-marine and I’ll blast you into next week
              2) whine whine whine people are saying mean things to me now.

              “I told him I would knock him on his ass”

              Which is a threat of physical violence, but you actually said “blast into next week” which suggests a LARGE caliber bullet at close range, or maybe a shotgun at close range.

              “He threatened to call the police and take my kids away”

              No, he pointed out assault and murder are crimes which carries with it the ramification of having your kids taken away in some cases, like those where you claim to threaten your kids with violence.

              “But yes somehow I am the bad guy”

              Yes, the person who “claims” to be an ex-marine but actually conceded to lying who uses the threat of violence would be the bad guy. Calling such a gent and assmaster wouldn’t be bad.

          2. Google “number of vaccines dispensed by doctors offices in the USA”. You are talking about potential for inexpensive vaccine treatments. Costs should be based on reality. If most middle and upper income families go to a doctor for those treatments, the cost is much, much higher when factoring in lost time from work, the doctor’s fee for a “well child visit” which is really a vaccine injection visit. Remember too that even minor events like fevers, likely to be under-reported, require a parent to stay home with the child because day care centers usually have policies against taking in kids with a fever.

            1. Which situation would you prefer?

              a) staying at home for a day or two, for a minor reaction to a vaccine?

              b) staying at home (or staying in the hospital pediatrics department) for an extended period of time, because you refuse to provide your child with vaccines which prevent serious, sometimes deadly, childhood diseases?

              Minor events such as fevers are not “reportable”.

            2. “Google “number of vaccines dispensed by doctors offices in the USA”. ”

              Don’t check the CDC schedule, or your state’s board of health health recommendation, school requirements. Just Google. Right.

              “because day care centers usually have policies”

              Citation needed, as in day car centers that specifically have rules that DON’T list low grade fever after immunization as an exclusion. The fact of the matter is parents send kids to day care all the time after immunizations. If it’s as common as you claim it would seem to be a non issue. So I’m suspecting you’re pulling this argument from your arse.

            3. Sounds like you have no kids. Day care centers most always have a policy that they will not accept a child with a fever. Does that just seem like common sense?
              Your first rant is another incorrect reframing of my point. I am talking about total injections delivered to the population en masse, not the mandatory schedule. Pointing out options for lower cost delivery methods is “potential” cost. You or skeptical (I still suspect you are the same person based on the common foul language and writing style) mentioned pharmacy delivery, the nurse came in her and said that is wrong. The cdc schedule requires injections by a doctor or nurse.

            4. No, you don’t deal with reality. You’re an ex-marine who really wasn’t a marine who came here threatening to blast us into next week.

              And you totally googled that up, which kind of disqualifies it as a source. Accepting it at face value it doesn’t address the issue of vaccination, only 67% of day cares surveyed would reject a child with a mild fever.

            5. ” Day care centers most always have a policy that they will not accept a child with a fever. Does that just seem like common sense?”

              Common sense does NOT exist. You need a specific citation that a day care refuses to care for children who have been recently vaccinated. You need to provide a citation that shows most (51+%) don’t allow children with fevers, and exemptions are not made for recently vaccinated children.

              ” am talking about total injections”

              Which you will actually see the odds of adverse reactions go down with additional injections.

              “I still suspect you are the same person based on the common foul language and writing style”

              Because you’re a lying sack of shit who continues to ignore I gave you my damned number. Entirely different voice in an entirely different part of the country.

              ” The cdc schedule requires injections by a doctor or nurse.”

              No it doesn’t, yet another lie in your long list of lies. Now in NYC it requires a “health practitioner” which requires someone legally allowed to administer vaccines. But that’s New York, not the CDC.

            6. This from the South Dakota dept. of health.
              http://doh.sd.gov/faqs/assets/ChildCareExclusion.pdf
              Also if you were a parent with kids, I don’t think your response to a kid who woke up with a fever and felt like crap would be “suck it up buttercup you are going to daycare.” Many parents would “self exclude” themselves from daycare and stay home with that child that didn’t feel well. This “low grade fever” term is also quite abused from what I can see. Young children have developing and aggressive immune systems. I’ve seen 101, 102 on a thermometer many times. Their fevers tend to be higher than adults. The other link I posted earlier mentioned exclusion above 101, which is hardly uncommon for young kids. My conclusion that fever = kid often stays home is hard to refute. The other part of this, fever = under-reported symptom in VAERS database, also no evidence to refute.

            7. /”suck it up buttercup you are going to daycare.”/

              No, THIS IS YOUR ASSERTION ASSHOLE. You’re the one who proposed sending kids to daycare with fevers but complained you can’t do that.

              “This “low grade fever” term is also quite abused from what I can see”

              Then you’ll have to define what you mean by fever. A lowgrade fever is defined as temps near 100.4 degrees.

        4. No offense, but I support vaccines and my IQ is probably higher than that. As for the expense of vaccination, County health programs and private insurance always pay for the critical vaccinations. If you can’t spare an hour (often on Saturday) to take your kid to the doctor, well, you probably shouldn’t have one.

  6. Skeptical: I’ve explored both sides of this issue and while the anti-vaxers certainly err in using pseudo-science, the pro-vax community is guilty of “bad-science” from what I can see. For example:
    * CDC tracking of disease outbreaks is a MANDATORY process. The VAERS vaccine damage reporting system is a VOLUNTARY process. Not a balance by any means. How can we do a fair risk/reward analysis when one side is incomplete? My key concern is in reference to the “booster shot” trend where kids are given 4, 5, and 6 shots of the same vaccine to improve efficacy. Are the final shots really worth the cost and risk?
    * I’ve seen “cook the books” cost/benefit analysis on many occasions. The loss from a disease outbreak includes loss of life, the worst of all, and lost time due to illness. Yet many cost models I see for the vaccines are only the costs for the shots themselves, and that is ridiculous. If a parent has to take time off work to go to the doctor with their child to get a shot, that is a significant cost. If the child has a reaction, even a mild one, and misses school, that is a cost. I also think that we are indoctrinating children towards a lifestyle of running to the doctor very frequently, and there can be a lot of added cost there from over-use of medicine. Hard to pin a calculated value on that one.
    I’m not an anti-vaxxer, but nor do I subscribe to “The Government and giant corporations are always right” philosophy. I think there is cause for skepticism around the increasing number of vaccines we are mandating. Some states, such as New York where I live, are up to around 60. A few more years and that will be in triple digits. When will it end?
    Fear based marketing is wrong. We need to be fair and analytical about these choices. Cost/benefit analysis for each shot is the right way to do this.
    This debate is so much like politics between the democrats and republicans. Vile and hateful things are fired back and forth, and little compromise or resolution occurs. The vaccine debate is equally tainted by too much emotion, and not enough substance.

    1. Wait! What? There are two sides to what issue? Whether soccer is boring or not? Whether liberals or conservatives are better for healthcare? Whether chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla?

      Oh you mean vaccines? So, you’re implying that there is some debate. Because there isn’t. There are scientific facts on one side. And on the other is misinformation, pseudoscience, junk medicine, and quackery.

      On the “side” of vaccinating, there is peer-reviewed studies that would be taller than Mt. Everest. That’s it, there isn’t another side.

      Do you not think that the FDA and CDC track adverse events? VAERS has one valuable purpose, and that’s to detect something going on above noise level. And when it detects that the FDA and CDC jump on it. No other drug in the world, other than vaccines, has such a wonderful system. But it has no power to determine causality. So you can make it mandatory or not, it shows neither correlation nor causality. It just provides observational data that may or may not be investigated depending on the quality of information.

      Since you believe in conspiracy theories, that someone “cooks the books”, then we have nothing further to discuses. Go find Obama’s birth certificate. Go prove that the Jews blew up the World Trade Center. Because, your assumption that someone is “cooking the books” is so outlandish as to be laughable.

      I’ll tell you a secret. Come close. OK, don’t tell anyone. But if there were going to be “cooking of the books”, which assumes every employee of Big Pharma is an immoral cretin, then the value proposition would be to eliminate the $10 profit from vaccines and go for the $35,000 profit to Big Pharma when a child is taken to the PICU because of measles. Because 30% of measles patients end up in the hospital. 30% of those end up in intensive care. And 500 die a year if we don’t vaccinate. Oh that means Big Mortuary will be in on the “cost benefit”.

      So, let me put this way. Your logical fallacy is so incredibly amateurish I cannot begin to see how you survive every day. YOUR cost-benefit only accounts for the rare, infrequent, and mostly minor adverse events. You completely fucking ignore ICU visits, death, incapacitation, mental anguish from families, money, the ability of our healthcare system to handle an epidemic, the poor, everyone. You know why? Because you are a privileged, shit doesn’t stink, white male xenophobic jerk.

      1. For all your yacking all you have proven is that you are a foul mouthed ass. I can’t imagine you’d have the balls to talk to me face to face like that, or this ex Marine would blast you into next week. The incremental costs of each vaccine is very high when you factor in that both parents work in many households. I really do think there is intent to indoctrinate children to go to the doctor 4 times a year. That way as they grow older, they will keep going an excessive amount. Plus if there is any proof that all these vaccines do cause auto immune issues, we may well find that damages are a lot bigger than we think. Guys like you jumped all over scientists who speculated that viruses cause some forms of cancer. Those scientists were treated as quacks at first, but have proven to be correct. I just can’t support the notion of escalating to 100+ vaccine treatments. That’s where we are headed.

        1. And anyone with more than 5 brain cells and any experience in marketing (I have 25 years in sales) can see the vaccine program is fantastic marketing for biopharms. They don’t cost much to make, and if we drill into kids a prescription drug based culture, money is to be made later on Lipitor, Viagra, etc. Those drugs are where the big money is made. I am not saying zero vaccines are a good plan, but jeepers it seems that 50+ treatments, the mandate now in many US states, is excessive.

          1. Ex marine eh. Funny your timeline shows that there was no time that you were not in school or working and you don’t list your service. Just another lying wussy.

          2. “They don’t cost much to make”

            However require an insane amount of money in terms of research and development, upfront costs for development, oh yeah, and they’re also not all that cheap to make.

            “and if we drill into kids a prescription drug based culture, money is to be made later on Lipitor”

            You got it half right. Lifespans in the post vaccine era are up which does increase the odds that someone will spend their social security on Lipitor, which generates more revenue than any vaccine. In fact the top 2 drugs in terms of revenue is more than all vaccines world wide in terms of revenue.

            “Those drugs are where the big money is made”

            Yep, exactly, and decreased child and infant mortality and longer lifespans represent a fantastic long term investment for big pharma. I’m not saying they’re angels, far from it. But you’d have to be flipping nuts to deny your child the best odds of surviving until adulthood and if you’re really offended you should vaccinate the fuck out of your child and focus on preventative care to stick it to the man.

          3. What you’re missing is how much money it costs to get a vaccine on the market – hundreds of millions of dollars to get it through clinical trials, for a product that’s only used several times in a lifetime.

            And you think that a child will be more likely to use Lipitor or Viagra because he or she was pricked with a needle at a young age? Even as anti-vaccine conspiracy theories go, that one doesn’t make sense.

          4. Yep, vaccines are smart business.

            They help us keep our children alive through childhood so they can grow up to develop cholesterol issues, diabetes, and cancer – which many come with age and poor lifestyle choices.

            50+ treatments? There’s no such thing.

        2. I don’t take kindly to physical threats. Since I’ve got your IP address….Sorry dude, but I’m forwarding this to your local police. Good luck you with that. Hopefully they take your children and vaccinate them, placing them with a family that actually loves children.

        3. Why not threaten me? Here’s my number.
          206-337-6027

          I’ll be sure to post anything you say to youtube and mock you for it. It really kind of demonstrates how anti-anything are really insane violent bozos that will result to a bullet censorship rather than hear objective reality.

          Alas you are delusional. Take the measles vaccine. Without it you have a 90% chance of catching measles from someone with measles. 1 dose those odds are reduced to 99%, and two doses 99.9%. Given measles is no longer endemic to the United States the benefit of this vaccine is clear, a disease once affected virtually the entire population is traced to a few outbreaks caused by you delusional nuts who take your children to places with lower immunization rate and bring back measles with one exception, literally one exception.

          Pertussis is a little trickier since there were concerned for its safety and the current vaccine isn’t quite as effective as the older one. However we’re still talking a 98% reduction of the disease, and we can track outbreaks to clusters of you delusional nuts and thanks to you insane dolts there is a small cluster of dead infants.

          But blast away. You’ll go to jail and your kids will be vaccinated.

          .

        4. There is no proof that vaccines cause auto immune diseases. If you think getting a vaccine makes children want to go to the doctor, I would urge you to work on knowing more children.

          You’ve pointed to no actual problem with our vaccine schedule, which the 2013 Institute of Medicine Report found safe. What, then, is your argument against protecting children from diseases?

          And threats are not a substitute to having evidence or facts on your side. They just suggest you cannot win an argument on the merits and speak badly of your character.

        5. Guys like you jumped all over scientists who speculated that viruses cause some forms of cancer. Those scientists were treated as quacks at first, but have proven to be correct.

          Are you by any chance fucking up the H. pylori story here even worse than is usual in crank circles?

        6. “Those scientists were treated as quacks at first, but have proven to be correct”

          This is called the Galileo fallacy.

          1) They said Galileo was crazy
          2) Galileo was right
          a) They say I am crazy
          b) I am right.

          2 !=b. The fact of the matter is the standard of evidence was a mathematical model that would predict the locations of planets factoring in perceived retrograde motion. Ptolemy did this with epicycles and predicted the locations of planets to a high degree of accuracy. Copernicus did the same thing, but didn’t actually improve accuracy. It wasn’t until Kepler and Newton that a more accurate model was proposed negating the old dogma of circular orbits in favor of elliptical.

          And the funny thing about this world is there are all sorts of bozos who have crackpot hypothesis and they’ll remain crackpots until such time as they pony up the evidence to support them. To accept your assertion would be to accept propositions without evidence and that’s not really science is it?

    2. Actually, federal law requires reporting of vaccine adverse events. So you’re wrong about the claim that reports to VAERs are voluntary.
      Not all diseases are reportable, either. For example, influenza deaths in adults are not.

      Do you have any actual evidence to counter the scientific consensus that the benefits of vaccines far, far outweigh their small risks?

      1. Again no the reporting to VAERS is not mandatory, according to doctors I have talked to, and to the VAERS web site home page.

        See this link: https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index

        See this from the site:

        VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning that reports about adverse events are not automatically collected, but require a report to be filed to VAERS. VAERS reports can be submitted voluntarily by anyone, including healthcare providers, patients, or family members. Reports vary in quality and completeness. They often lack details and sometimes can have information that contains errors.

        “Underreporting” is one of the main limitations of passive surveillance systems, including VAERS.

        1. A. From the VAERS website: “The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act (NCVIA) requires healthcare providers to report:
          Any adverse event listed by the vaccine manufacturer as a contraindication to further doses of the vaccine; or
          Any adverse event listed in the VAERS Table of Reportable Events Following Vaccination that occurs within the specified time period after vaccination.” http://vaers.hhs.gov/professionals/index.
          Reporting is required, not voluntary.

          B. While VAERS has underreporting it also has substantial over reporting.

          http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/117/2/387.full.pdf
          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23063829

          And see: http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/VAERS.htm

          1. That’s reporting of specific, pre registered events. Provided the health care provider is told by the parent that the event happened. I’m hearing now about “go to cvs” to get a shot to save money. Will they call every parent and ask them the laundry list of questions 1 day, 2 days, 7 days later? I posted from the same site where the words “underreporting” were used. It’s not easy to get our arms around the true analytical data for acute injuries. For anything chronic, near impossible at this point.

            1. Fact remain:
              A. Doctors are required to report – and if something happens post vaccine, a person’s doctor would know of it.

              B. Patients can also, in addition, report voluntarily.

              C. The same site also talks about over reporting.

              Short point: VAERS requires reporting. VAERS data does not reflect numbers of injuries – it can be used, after investigation, to identify patterns, but the raw reports do not reflect anything except that someone filed a report..

              For that we have other sources of data – the VSD and studies of vaccines. We have a lot of data on vaccines’ harms, including chronic problems (most of which, the studies show, they don’t cause).

              When scientists point out the risks of modern vaccines are small and far outweighed by their benefits they do so based on solid data.

            2. Talk to a doctor. My sister in law is a doctor. The mandate to report every event isn’t there. She tells me that with as busy as she is, she doesn’t report everything. Again the vaers site calls this program “passive surveillance”.

            3. Well it’s the law, the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986. Now if you’re telling us Ms. Vincent (not sure if she’s married) is operating in violation to the law we’d be happy to report her ass. She’ll totally lose her license and have you to think for it.

              Unless you’re being intellectually dishonest and your sis in law sometimes doesn’t report mild complaints following the vaccine. Still not lawful but not as criminal as what you’re proposing like if a patent goes into seizures, which is the entire fucking point of the law idiot. You even accept this point as you already discussed DTP which had the side effect of febrile seizures. You are so full of shit.

            4. Doctors can only report events if they know about them. The feedback loop isn’t there all the time. The vaers system is passive surveillance, in their own words. I’m done with this site because I’ve had enough of your personal attacks and insults. You are one mean and callous person. I really didn’t appreciate all your personal attacks against me. My blast you into next week comment was meant to say that I didn’t think you had the balls to talk face to face with someone the way you write in here. I still don’t believe that you do. You hide behind a computer screen and attack people.

            5. “Doctors can only report events if they know about them. ”

              Which they are more likely to know about serious adverse reactions than mild ones which is exactly what you’d read if you were being honest.

              “The vaers system is passive surveillance, in their own words.”

              Which it’s mandatory doctors report events reactions, which are then reported and included on the vaccine insert until such time as they are verified or dismissed.
              “You are one mean and callous person”

              Says the man who will blast me into next week, or whatever.

              “I didn’t think you had the balls to talk face to face”

              It doesn’t take balls to tell someone they’re a liar, or a shithead, or delusional. You fall into the liar class.

              “You hide behind a computer screen and attack people.”

              No, that’s you, you hide behind a computer screen claiming your an ex-marine threatening people. This makes you a scumbag. I’m the guy who posted his number so you can call and say that to me directly. This would be the act of a coward, but I’m not sure if you have more sense than that or if you’re a bigger coward.

            6. The “feedback loop” is there. Not only do you have a reading comprehension problem, you also seem to have an auditory processing problem.

              If, in fact, you have a relative who is a physician, and if, in fact that physician told you she doesn’t report minor events (redness and pain at the injection site, mild/moderate fever, crankiness, etc.), she correctly does not report those reactions.

              Get to know the difference between minor reactions and Severe Adverse Events, which physicians are required to report.

              I worked as a public health nurse clinician-epidemiologist at a large (1.2 million population catchment area) County Health Department-Division of Communicable Disease Control, where I investigated cases, clusters and outbreaks of vaccine-preventable-diseases. During my tenure there, I administered thousands of vaccines to infants, children and adults and never had a Severe Adverse Event reported to me by a parent or a treating physician. My colleagues (~ 40 doctors and nurses) at the Health Department, during their collective tenures, administered hundreds of thousands vaccines and they never had a Severe Adverse Event reported to them by a parent or a treating physician.

              I had contact with every doctor (pediatricians and family practice doctors) who administered vaccines to infants and children in my County, they never reported a Severe Adverse Event for any vaccine.

              Cripes, get a life, get an education in basic science and stop perseverating.

              Immunology 101, Virology 101, Bacteriology 101 and Epidemiology 101…learn some.

            7. I am sorry to hear your sister does not follow the legal mandate, but I would like evidence that other doctors similarly ignore the law before assuming it. Passive surveillance does mean that anyone can report anything

            8. “to get a shot to save money”

              No, you have a reading disorder. You were butthurt over taking timeout during your day to take care of your kid’s health. Ignoring for the moment that you wife works from home you CAN go to the pharmacy.

              “I posted from the same site where the words “underreporting” were used.”

              And if you read further you’d likely fine serious adverse reactions are MORE LIKELY to reported. This makes sense to anyone with an IQ above 50. Injection site soreness isn’t as likely to be reported as convulsions.

              And nutjob, you should totally be taking your kids to the doctor at least once a year. That’s who you should talk to about suspected vaccine reactions.

              “It’s not easy to get our arms around the true analytical data for acute injuries”

              But that’s what epidemiologists do. With their mad math skills and all this data submitted by health care practitioners and people like you. All this information is put on the insert for your enjoyment and pleasure. Adverse reaction odds are listed, as well as adverse events.

            9. “I’m hearing now about “go to cvs” to get a shot to save money. Will
              they call every parent and ask them the laundry list of questions 1 day,
              2 days, 7 days later? I posted from the same site where the words
              “underreporting” were used….”

              Where did you “hear about that”?

              It looks as though your source is mistaken and you are misinformed about the pharmacists in New York State, with regard to providing vaccinations:

              https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/immunization/providers/pharmacists_as_immunizers.htm

              “New York State Education laws § 6527, 6801, and 6909 permit licensed pharmacists, who obtain an additional certification, to:

              administer influenza, pneumococcal, and meningococcal vaccinations to adults 18 years of age and older under either patient specific or non-patient specific orders; and

              administer herpes zoster vaccine to adults 18 years of age and older under patient specific orders.”

              Would you like to try again to *impress us* with your knowledge about vaccines for children?

            10. So what about MMR, DTaP, and all the other NYS mandates? Can’t give those shots? Again costs should be based on reality, not theory. If most shots are given during a 9 to 5 work day, at a doctor’s office, then the cost models should reflect lost time from work, plus the doctor’s bill.

            11. Read the link I provided to you, again. I provided that link to prove to you that what you stated above ” I’m hearing now about “go to cvs” to get a shot to save money. Will
              they call every parent and ask them the laundry list of questions 1 day,
              2 days, 7 days later?”…is patently wrong.

              Under NY State Laws and NY State Regulations, only licensed medical doctors and licensed nurses can administer every vaccine on the Recommended Childhood Vaccine Schedule.

              Do you have a physician and do your children have a physician?

              I’m not playing your game of JAQing off, troll.

            12. Thanks for proving that for the mandated vaccine schedule, there isn’t the option to “go cheap” and get your shot at a pharmacy. Still haven’t looked up the stat on how many shots are done at doctor’s offices? Thanks for not getting too hostile. On your other post about fevers being trivial. I think not. You can’t take your kid to daycare if they have a fever. For a two income household, one parent has to miss a work day. The lack of reporting on fevers also distorts the accuracy of the cost models. I do want to say I applaud your efforts to get kids vaccinated in an economical fashion.

            13. Why would you ever want to “go cheap” by trying to get childhood vaccines at a pharmacy?

              Perhaps, you should have thought about what parenting entails, before you ever decided to become a parent.

              If you didn’t think about the roles parents play, and you resent taking time off for doctors’ visits, then you are neglecting their medical needs.

            14. You are missing my entire point. Without proper cost values for vaccine treatments and their side effects, there is likelihood of piling on more and more treatments to the point where they are a bad value from a risk/reward view. Frankly I think we are there already by the time we get to the 4th, 5th, 6th dose for some schedules. Another conflict of interest point I haven’t brought up yet. The motive is there to get vaccines to about 80% efficacy, but not higher. Prove the vaccine works, but don’t make it too good, or the medical profession only financially benefits from just administering one dose. I lean libertarian in many ways, and I just generally dislike mandates. Seems to me that the vaccination mandate is a lot more pushed than effect reporting mandates. My arguments still haven’t been disproven. Many important effects are under reported. Cost models are distorted in favor of over vaccinating. Have a good evening.

            15. “The motive is there to get vaccines to about 80% efficacy, but not higher”

              More conspiracy garbage. The oral polio vaccine was virtually 100% effective. MMR is 99% effective after two doses and there is hard data to back up deployment of the second dose.

              “Many important effects are under reported. ”

              You’ve actually already conceded this is not the case. Sure there is under reporting BUT your own data suggests serious adverse events are within 30% of objective reality. So you really have no point what so ever.

            16. A nurse debated me here and finally conceded that low grade fevers are quite under-reported to VAERS. The “mandate” for the small number of SEVERE reactions is an honor system mandate. Who is doing the conceding? The mandate to report is for a small number of responses, I got a lot of smoke and mirrors answers that all “adverse events” were reported. Playing on words, I consider a fever to be an adverse reaction, if nothing else that it could often result in a need for a parent to stay home from work and lose productivity, which is a significant cost to society.

              Show me a study on your percentages. Here is a WHO study concluding 80% for the measles vaccine, and therefore recommending multiple doses:

              http://www.who.int/bulletin/archives/80(10)776.pdf

            17. “Playing on words, I consider a fever to be an adverse reaction,”

              A “low grade fever” would be a mild one. The goal of a vaccine is to provoke an immune response. THIS IS AN IMMUNE RESPONSE. Your own data showed CLEARLY the more serious the adverse reaction, the more likely it is reported. A moderate to high fever is more likely to be reported if as you say it keeps a parent home.

              “if nothing else that it could often result in a need for a parent to stay home from work and lose productivity, which is a significant cost to society.”

              Okay, how many people got measles before the vaccine? Virtually everyone, typically as children. For measles it’s fucking easy. 90% of the population getting full measles vs 5-15% of the population getting a moderate fever. Pertussis too. For polio you “might” have a point since 95% of the population more or less was immune. And indeed polio was actually ignored except by groups like the March of Dimes. So much for your government conspiracy.

              But ah, then we have to factor in higher population densities, which vaccines support. With lower child mortality rates from infectious diseases we can support larger populations.

              “Here is a WHO study concluding 80% for the measles vaccine, and therefore recommending multiple doses:”

              You seem to have a serious comprehension disorder. Firstly we have done two doses in the US for some time, since 1989. Having so many child you should know this already. Your citation is 2002 using data from 1995-1996. You also are confusing effectiveness with efficacy. Efficacy is under ideal circumstances.

              Measles is highly infectious with a given exposure resulting in a 1:10 chance of getting measles. Immunization reduces this to 1:100 more or less. And your study backs this up as well. Families with multiple kids have increased odds of exposure. With increased exposures the odds of getting measles are increased. Very simple.

              So much for your 130+ IQ.

            18. I obviously meant per dose effectiveness and you quote multiple dose effectiveness, and cite no source for that. Again you twist what I said, and in so doing prove my point. Also again you only want to talk about measles, which I have agreed is highly contagious and a 2 dose MMR treatment is probably a wise move.
              You still don’t make any case against the fact that VAERS is likely to underreport these “mild reactions” which are likely to result in lost work days. Those are costs, and those costs are high, and should be accounted for in cost benefit models.
              Your same tired debating strategy of changing my words, then going off on a tangent, and then finishing up with a personal insult, although at least you have toned them down a bit.

            19. “Your same tired debating strategy of changing my words, then going off on a tangent, and then finishing up with a personal insult, although at least you have toned them down a bit.”

              Well you are still an amoral scumbag who came here and made physical threats backed up by your prior experience with the “marines”. You back peddled from blast meaning execute, to meaning hit, to meaning something you’d tell kids. You also tried to assert that I’m somehow Skeptical Rapture even though I gave you my number which you can easily figure out I’m in an entirely different state and golly an entirely different voice. This makes you a liar and a sleaze bag.

              “You still don’t make any case against the fact that VAERS is likely to underreport these “mild reactions” which are likely to result in lost work days. ”

              Hey stupid fuck, already addressed. It’s entirely possible 5-15% of those injected with MMR could have a high fever of ~103F which would affect roughly 90% of the population. This “might might might” result in lost work days, maybe. This differs from wild type measles which also affected roughly 90% of the population. Now how big of an idiot are you to argue FOR wild type measles under the precept of lost work days. Even ignoring sick days we can look at the last outbreak and see 1:10 children got HOSPITALIZED which carries with it the modest fee of ~$10,000, which would be averaged to ~$1,000/head which we can expand to virtually the entire population because measles is that infectious. So idiot… not only are you banking that wild type measles results in fewer sick days, but in terms of dollars/head the fucking vaccine is a fucking good investment.

              Now I already conceded that polio might be different. Wild type polio only affected roughly 95% of the population and most of those had a sore throat. In terms of lost work days it’s entirely possible that the 10,000 child who were seriously affected by polio per year “might” have resulted in less lost work days, maybe. But you’d still be a stupid fuck because you would consider the loss of work days to be the priority OVER your child having the best chance of living to adulthood without paralysis, disfigurement, or neurological disorder.

              And polio doesn’t fit into your conspiracy model idiot because it wasn’t the government that pushed to develop the vaccine. It was the March of Dimes which was funded by parents literally donating dimes.

              And nutjob, we also have to factor in POPULATION DENSITY which is why governments are so hip to vaccinating.

              You truly are a dumb ass.

    3. 1: Reporting of adverse events following vaccination is mandatory. The VAERS system is open access and voluntary so that ANYONE who feels they have had a reaction has the ability to report said reaction, period.

      So, if you feel one of your children has had an adverse event which you feel is vaccine related, you can report it independently of needing a doctor to confirm.

      2: Illness from vaccination is typically 1-3 days of a light fever for most cases. For severe reactions, yes more time is required for parents to care for their children.

      Given that childhood diseases were ubiquitous, vaccines still are placed firmly in the ‘positive value’ in the cost/benefit analysis.

      Even if we assume that a child receives a fever or discomfort enough requiring the parent to stay home for 3 days following vaccination, that would amount to 27 days off over the entire schedule, if you followed it precisely. That’s for the schedule up to age 12.

      Compare that to the amount of time needed to care for a child with an infectious disease – 2 weeks for measles, ~ 2 weeks for chicken pox, a week with rotavirus, months for meningitis..

      3: Most kids won’t remember the bulk of their shots in childhood, and it certainly isn’t a manner of indoctrination towards running to the doctor. If anything, it’s educating them in how best to protect their health and the health of others.

      1. VAERS is not mandatory reporting by doctors. I have had several doctors tell me so, and that because they are so busy, a lot of the reporting is done by patients. There really isn’t a solid foundation for the frequency and types of side effects. You understand that this fuels the anti-vax side, right? I’m not anti-vax, in spite of many people here trying to label me as such. I’m against hyper-vaccination, and dislike “The road to hell is paved with good intentions” mandates. The mandates can also be counter-productive. Some people get pissed off by government mandates and won’t follow them out of spite. Yes that might be doing the wrong thing for the wrong reason, but that is the reality of forced mandates.
        Thanks for making a comment without insulting me or calling me names. I appreciate that.

        1. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/activities/vaers.html

          “The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act (NCVIA) requires health care providers to report adverse events (possible side effects) that occur following vaccination, so the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) established the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS)
          in 1990.”

          So yes, reporting is MANDATORY.

            1. Again, you have the ability to report ANY reaction you feel is related to the vaccine.

              That’s why the system is passive – so that anyone can make a report.

        2. We have a solid foundation of anticipated adverse events from what was reported during the clinical trial – ANY adverse event that occurred during the trial is disclosed in frequency and severity.

    4. “Some states, such as New York where I live, are up to around 60. A few
      more years and that will be in triple digits. When will it end?”

      How about counting up those “60 vaccines”?

      So, which vaccine(s) would you recommend be eliminated from the NY State Recommended Childhood Vaccine Schedule?

      http://www.health.ny.gov/publications/2370.pdf

      Be set to provide us with your risk-vs-benefits analysis for each vaccine, you deem unnecessary.

      Be certain to provide us with links to your sources that back up your anti-vaccine statements, by including the exceedingly rare severe adverse events-vs-the risks for actually contracting each of those vaccine-preventable-diseases.

  7. That’s right. People are trying to do what is best for their kids so being judging and hateful and calling anti vaxers idiots is a foolish approach. When have you ever convinced someone to sway to your view after calling them an idiot? Ineffective, is it not?

    1. My mom always said, you attract more bees with honey. Frothing anger and frustration–while constantly present–does not help advanced the conversation.

      1. Who cares? My life here is to mock the living crap out of anti-vaxxers because they simply despise children and live their life on pseudoscience.

        The author of this article is a nice person, who makes a very simple point. We vaccinate because we care about all children ours. And yours.

    2. The article explains that not vaccinating leaves children at risk. It points out that by vaccinating our own children, we are also protecting those of parents who make the mistake of leaving their children without that protection. Where is it calling anyone an idiot? Even smart people can make mistakes. Not vaccinating children is a big one. But it does not necessarily mean the person is an idiot.

    3. Well the thing is they are idiots. There is nothing hateful about this.

      You have a few classes of AVers.

      Firstly you have the ignorant, those scammed by scam artists, and those who listen to scam artists. Those who accept “too much too soon” without looking at the data fall into the ignorant class.

      Then you have the delusional AVers. These are those who believe in inane conspiracies. These can be patently insane nuts that think vaccines have RFID chips in them and we have a shadow government of shape shifting Jewish Reptiles. These can be mildly insane who don’t think it through when it has to be a global conspiracy to push vaccines on the population.

      Then you have the scam artists. Some of these people are Chiropractors, Herbal supplements salesmen, oh yeah and massage therapists. Some truly believe the naturalistic fallacy that all things natural are good but ignore looking at how effective something is. Others like to say vaccines are bad so their products look good by extension. Sounds good, as long as you don’t ask how effective “treatment” is against preventing measles.

      All of these people are idiots and generally when you demonstrate to someone they’re an idiot they’re kind of thankful. That is if they’re intellectually honest. But more often than not they’d rather live in their delusion even though they’re largely accountable to measles and pertussis outbreaks which do affect and end the lives of children.

  8. Very nice! I think sometimes we get caught up in the frustrating details of all the anti-vaccine BS; it is good to remember to refocus on the ultimate goal of doing our best in keeping all kids healthy.

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